Non-helix, Multi-level Layout

[beiland]

I'm soon going to start track planning for a new layout I intend to build in its own dedicated Handi-house shed. I have purchased the shed already (12x16 ft), and I'm currently modifying my carport to place it under, at the rear.

My original thoughts were a double-deck, around-the-wall layout with as large of a peninsula as I might include. Naturally I thought I might utilize a helix over in one corner to facilitate the level change. And to keep it simple maybe a single track helix rather than a double track one?

But a few days ago I ran across a conversation that had me questioning the use of a space robbing helix.

Rather instead it spoke of a gradual elevation as the train moved around the perimeter of the room. I imagine you could still have an 'individual' upper and lower levels to run trains on, but they might be joined together by long gradual inclined track that periodically would 'peak thru' from its background location in the form of bridges, trestles, etc?? And maybe this inclined, joining track could be just a single track that would be set up to run trains either up or down??

Has anyone got some ideas, photos, track plans for such an arrangement?? Does it make sense??

 

[santafewillie]

Yes, a helix takes up a lot of space. While a "no-lix" is certainly feasible, be aware of the limitations. For a 2% (recommended) rise, it takes about 48" to rise 1". So if your levels are 10" apart (rather close), you would need 40' to go up that 10".
Not to dissuade you, just be aware of the length required.

Willie

 

[Rico]

Another consideration is if you don't use a helix then you'll need to go all the way around which may require a duck under.
If you go with a loop at one end to double back and continue the climb you've then used the space where a helix would have been.
They do eat up space but they also provide scenic possibilities.
Decisions decisions...

 

[beiland]

Thanks, keep the comments coming. I'm going to give them all consideration.

 

[beiland]

So if I were to use a single-track helix what would be my minimum radius for handling articulated steam engines, and long passenger cars? (most of my big steanm engines are the modern plastic ones that seem to take smaller radius track than the older brass engines.)

Then I could consider a double track helix, where the inner radius track would be reserved for modern diesel locos??

 

[santafewillie]

You mention that your building is 12' x 16'. Where is the door? While a 30" helix will work for most all rolling stock, I have no experience with articulated steam though. The reason for asking where the door is, is to think about where to locate the helix. A 30" helix will take up a space a bit over 5' x 5'. If your door is centered on the short wall, it won't fit in a corner on either side of the door. I would want a helix at one end of the layout next to the door on the long side wall if possible, and feed into two around the wall sections; and still have room for a small peninsula jutting into the center of the room on the other side. With this type of arrangement, your helix could be 36" and still leave just under 6' to have a narrow 24"-32" bench and a 38"-46" aisle.
Another thought. Confine your difficult steamers and passenger cars to only one level. I would still use a 30" radius helix though.

Willie

 

[flatbedcowboy]

Make the whole layout a giant helix!

 

[tootnkumin]

Make the whole layout a giant helix!

That is to a certain extent what my club did when it built their layout (considerably bigger than a 12 x 16 though). It does have a helix of sorts on the end of one peninsular which is better described as a spiral. 1 turn, reducing radius, crossing over itself at the top to start the next level closer to the backdrop than a normal helix. Otherwise they also use the 2 mainline style where one follows the high ground against the backdrop and the other the low ground nearest the inner edge. These can interchange with each other around the layout by having up and down grades as appropriate. I believe you have enough width in that 12" to have a short peninsular down the middle, with maybe a loop at the end. Gain extra radius there by making the layout against the side walls nearest, narrow to accommodate it. A possible position for the spiral.

It's quite possible to have both the inner high line and outer low line in a layout width of less than 30" or even a lot less. Most of the club's is less than an arm's length from fascia to backdrop, even with multitrack yards on each line.

 

[tootnkumin]

P.S. There are even 2 tunnels passing under the spiral to connect to the low-lines (were originally stub end branches). If you can accommodate the spiral as described, you may (or should) be able to get one)

 

[beiland]

My shed is 12' wide and 16' long. The door is centered on one of the 12' walls. If I utilize a helix I was going to put it at the 12' wall opposite end from the door,...probably over to one side of that 12' wall. I have even given some thoughts to making all, or a half portion of that helix stick out external to the layout shed itself (in its own mini-shed?).

Otherwise it I keep a helix totally within the dimensions of the 12x16 shed I would likely place it over in one corner of that 12' end wall opposite the door.

I was thinking of shelf's running down either side of the 16' side walls, then curving in from either side to the center peninsula extending back up a good portion of the center area of the shed. I was hoping some of these curves might just be making u-turns to run back up the peninsula on the same aisle as they ran down to the peninsula. Then again it might be nice if a curve or 2 were to cross over to the opposite side of the peninsula.

I guess this gets a little difficult to just describe in words. I have a number of sample track plans cut out that I will post for comments/help as I get closer to starting the layout. Right now I need to get my new shed installed under the carport first.

So 30 inches is the most recommended minimum for dia? 28 or 26 inches would not work too well for big steam engines on a single track helix??

 

[beiland]

That is to a certain extent what my club did when it built their layout (considerably bigger than a 12 x 16 though). It does have a helix of sorts on the end of one peninsular which is better described as a spiral. 1 turn, reducing radius, crossing over itself at the top to start the next level closer to the backdrop than a normal helix. Otherwise they also use the 2 mainline style where one follows the high ground against the backdrop and the other the low ground nearest the inner edge. These can interchange with each other around the layout by having up and down grades as appropriate. I believe you have enough width in that 12" to have a short peninsular down the middle, with maybe a loop at the end. Gain extra radius there by making the layout against the side walls nearest, narrow to accommodate it. A possible position for the spiral.

It's quite possible to have both the inner high line and outer low line in a layout width of less than 30" or even a lot less. Most of the club's is less than an arm's length from fascia to backdrop, even with multitrack yards on each line.

Having a hard time visualizing what you are saying,...some sort of photo/dwg example would be most helpful.

 

[beiland]

Maybe a helix at the end if the peninsula, and camouflaged like this?

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/sites/model-railroad-hobbyist.com/files/users/George%20Booth/done.jpg

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/4205

 

[beiland]

Wow there are lots of ideas here:
Helix Images

 

[Greg@mnrr]

Would it be possible to have a incline (grade) along the back drop and then have the track double back upon itself to make the climb to the second level? The track closest to the backdrop would be the highest track above the original grade.

Not the clearest explanation.

Greg

 

[riogrande]

I am in a similar sized space - 10x18 foot room and one side of the room has a second level so I could hide 11 tracks of storage under the yard.

I used a no-lix design to get my track up from staging, around the other side of the room, and back over the top. The grade I calculated is 2.9% and that allows the ceiling over the storage yard to be 7 1/2 inches over the track - not a lot of space but I didn't want a grade steeper than I have.

Photo's are here:

http://atlasrescueforum.proboards.com/thread/3737/jims-layout-progress

 

[otiscnj]

Have you considered some sort of train elevator along one side of the room. It could be a straight track, that literally lifts an entire train(say 9' long), the entire distance from storage, to the 'layout level.' something similar is a sort of 'elevator/transfer table,' where trains are stacked vertically, say behind a removable backdrop, with several trains above and below each other. When you want to run a particular train on the layout, you 'dial in' its 'level,' (which moves the 'vertical transfer table' in line with your 'mainline,' crank up the throttle, and run trains.

The perimeter of your place is roughly 52 feet, on the inside, not including any door. If you increased the grade between levels to say 3% you'd still be able to operate, long trains, and it wouldn't take up as long a run.

Another idea is to say have a gorge portion of your layout, scenery wise, and have the mainline that climbs cross back and forth across the gorge several times in a 'figure 8 configuration, using various radii curves, creating a layer cake type of effect.

As for the nolix idea, if you have it start to climb on the visible portion of the layout, then run the track behind the backdrop, and bring it out on the upper level at a low point on the scenery, that may give you some options also. Additionally, how about a nolix around the room, with a 3 section switchback, behind the backdrop, which would keep the trains going forward, running out onto the layout. If you used the 16' wall for climbing, you could gain 4' with each climbing section, perhaps. 3 climbing sections would give you 12" of separation, between layout levels.

From what I've heard, most people wouldn't use a helix if they could avoid it. Good luck, whatever you do.

 

[tootnkumin]

Having a hard time visualizing what you are saying,...some sort of photo/dwg example would be most helpful.

Here's a sample, 2 tracks serving separate areas of the layout, vertically seperated

The tracks here are the same as the first picture only on opposite sides of the backdrop divider. This peninsular is at the highest point of the layout and the lower track passes around the end via a tunnel directly beneath the top track

Here is that tunnel exiting into the quarry area

This is a train on the upper part of the spiral, at the other end of the above layout section, having left the main yard by the track below

 

[Chevron_GATX]

What about Noch and Easy Helix?

I was thinking of just buying a Noch pre-built helix for N-scale. Why is it that I never see anyone using or mentioning the Noch helixes? Do they suck or what? They make several for N-scale including a double-track helix, with a 329/362mm (12.95"/14.25") radius.

I also just found this post on another forum, "I believe that Easy Helix is still in business. They use plastic with metal tube spacers. Nominal radius is 28 inches, 4 inch separate for HO or N scales." —Doc in CT (posted in June, 2014). It's a US-based supplier and appears to be still in business as of September, 2016. The Easy Helixes are pricey (starting at $249), but I like that the helix itself is made of plastic, and the spacers made of metal.

 

[beiland]

External Helix Structure (metal donut?)

I'm soon going to start track planning for a new layout I intend to build in its own dedicated Handi-house shed. I have purchased the shed already (12x16 ft), and I'm currently modifying my carport to place it under, at the rear.

My original thoughts were a double-deck, around-the-wall layout with as large of a peninsula as I might include. Naturally I thought I might utilize a helix over in one corner to facilitate the level change. And to keep it simple maybe a single track helix rather than a double track one?

But a few days ago I ran across a conversation that had me questioning the use of a space robbing helix.....

I've developed another idea that would include the use of a helix. But instead of placing that 5-5.5 foot helix structure inside my 12x16 foot shed, I am thinking of building it inside its own little 'protuberance' added to the back wall of the shed. I recently ran across some surplus galvanized metal siding they utilize here in FL to construct roofs and walls of outdoor sheds and commercial buildings.

So my thought was to construct some sort of 'donut structure' to house the helix, and attach it to the outside, back wall of the shed. It would be waterproof from having a metal roof and siding of its own, and would be accessible from up under its hollow center, open bottom, that would sit up at the fairly high level of the lower level of the dbl-deck layout inside (plus the extra 8 inches that the shed's floor is above outside ground level).

I was thinking it might be nice if this exterior 'helix donut structure' was light weight enough to be fairly simple to attached to the exterior side of the train shed. So instead of heavy thick plywood construction, ....why not alum sheet roadbed for the helix? (and all-thread risers). This thinner, lighter alum plate 'subroadbed' should be plenty stiff in that spiraling, narrow roadbed configuration, and concurrently cut down on the spacing needed between the layers....and all the while be fairly light weight to the overall helix protuberance structure.?

I am not worried about extra sound created by alum subroadbed as it would be nice to know what is happening inside this big 'helix tube'.

I happen to have a nice metal scrape yard real close by me so I might well get my metal supply from there, particularly following this recent hurricane event we had here in FL.

 

[tootnkumin]

One man's rubbish is another's treasure (or opportunity). If it's strong enough and can give an even base to the track (no dips/twists), give it a try. It may get very hot or cold in there which would need to be addressed. Condensation on exposed, uninsulated metal could cause water to drip off it's roof or trickle down the walls. So long as you have internal access from beneath, is definitely a way to get more "Railroad" space within the main structure.

If I can ever get to build a layout or even a test running track in my single car width, 2-3 car long garage, I am looking at building a Bay window type structure on the back end to put the track radius around the end to gain every inch of straight run along the side walls as I can, I this is what you are envisaging, the only thing I would say is make sure it can be closed up underneath with a swing down flap to prevent vermin entering. You may need legs on it if it's too big to be just hung off the back wall. But one again some alloy posts on concrete footing might suffice.