No more "Extreme Trains"?

[el3637]

Hopefully none of those negative comments weighed into History's decision to pull the plug on the program.

They didn't "pull the plug on the program". Extreme Trains, like many HC shows, is built around a fixed number of episodes - far less than what we'd consider a "season" in network TV. All made months before the debut. As to whether or not there will be a second season, it's all about ratings and the availability of the host(s), finding new venues to shoot, etc. I guarantee you they don't pay attention to individual comments....

Andy

 

[ThoroughBreed]

They didn't "pull the plug on the program". Extreme Trains, like many HC shows, is built around a fixed number of episodes - far less than what we'd consider a "season" in network TV. All made months before the debut. As to whether or not there will be a second season, it's all about ratings and the availability of the host(s), finding new venues to shoot, etc. I guarantee you they don't pay attention to individual comments....

Andy

Well, I, for one am glad they don't pay attention to the comments from all the rivet counters. If people will just think about what they need to put into this to attract new viewers, you will understand, there's alot of "blush" and makeup involved. If they did the show 100% accurately, only the rivet counters would be watching, as it would make for some real boring video. And afterall, its the ratings for the show that mean alot, as that is what the sponsors look at to support the show.
I looked forward to the show every Tuesday evening, and if I missed it, would stay up to watch replay at 1 am.
I do hope they bring in a new season of it.

 

[TaeOH]

I really enjoyed seeing contemporary railroads on the show, I especially loved the Pacific Fruit Express episode. I really hope they do more shows.

 

[bnsfjason]

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=64267176&blogID=467655980

 

[sparkyftw]

That is too bad. I liked the show just could never see because I had class at the same time.

It is kind of cool to see Matt's myspace. Nice to know he is a normal guy with interests and stuff.

 

[jtudor]

The host posted in the forum

Over on History.com they have discussion forums for the show, I found that Matt Bown had posted this:

I just wanted to thank everyone for watching the show. Whether I drove you nuts or you loved it thanks!
There was one thing in the posts that disturbed me that I wanted to address.
The people that thought we weren't being "safe" or said "he should have been thrown off the property!"
Believe me safety was of the utmost importance. We would have been thrown out for sure if we weren't being safe. We ALWAYS had a foreman with us in the cab or outside. Remember 99.9% of the stuff going on doesn't make the show. I can't remember once where our crew was in a compromising position.
I love that little kids love the show! I would have too if this was on when I was eight. I used to watch Captain Kangaroo just to see the 2 second clip of the locomotive in the credits
It cracked me up that my band actually became a thread in this forum. Some of you may have thought I was behind some of the posts there, but yesterday was the first time I actually came here.
So thanks for everything! The compliments, the constructive criticism, all of it, it's all good! The show's goal was to give the average person an inside look at how important railroads are and were to our great country. SURE It got a little crazy and I got pretty excited sometimes but it was all in good fun. I think the goal was accomplished and am proud to have been a part of it. Thanks,
Matt
​

So while he does not actually say there are no more shows, it sounds to me like either:

He does not know if there will be any more,
He does not think there will be more.
He knowe there will not be any more but does not want to say or can't say.

 

[Rogue]

It's sad to see some of those comments from the diehard railfans, before I say Matt's counter comments, I had thought myself that the railroads would not have allowed Matt and his crew to do anything that was unsafe. It's really sad that this negativity may have had an effect on the decision to cancel. It's sad that these so called Railfans have spoiled it for the majority who just love trains and are happy to enjoy seeing them on mainstram TV. Although these guys think they are the defenders of Railfanning, they are actually the people who make the man on the street think that Railfans and ModelRailroaders are weirdos!

 

[el3637]

It's really sad that this negativity may have had an effect on the decision to cancel.

You are "sad" about something that "MAY" have had an effect on the decision to cancel? What's sad to me is that the same "rivet counters are ruining the hobby" nonsense gets liberally applied to something as distant from *model* railroading and actual rivet counting as a TV show.

FWIW, "rivet counting" quite literally was coined to describe people who build models and strive for accuracy to the point that they, literally, count the rivets on the prototype and endeavor to replicate them - in quantity, quality, and location, on their model. While this is farther than most go, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. So I don't object to being called a rivet counter, I just object to being accused of ruining the hobby. The truth is, I have no desire to ruin your hobby nor do I have the POWER to ruin your hobby, nor does the collective Supreme Rivet Counting Council have the power to ruin your hobby. Only YOU can ruin your hobby. My hobby is alive and well thank you, and I'm enjoying it greatly. If the level at which I enjoy it is perceived by you as a threat, then you have a perception problem which I will not apologize for - however by way of explanation, I have no intent to ruin your hobby, nor interfere with your way of doing it by accusing you of trying to ruin it for me somehow.

I also enjoyed "Extreme Trains". I did find the host over-enthused, and the speed-ups of the video to be very annoying. But *every* History Channel show has annoying speed-ups and over-enthusiastic hosts, as well as a tendency to present the obvious as a revelation. But Extreme Trains is a gem of a show compared to "Monster Quest", in which they have completely and totally failed to find or identify a single monster in what, 12 episodes now?

Andy

 

[Rogue]

It was not my intention to offend anyone, rivet counting over here refers to people who want complete accuracy in anything not just modelling and who are not prepared to have any give and take whatsoever. However in retrospect that was perhaps the wrong term to use and I have edited it! Extreme trains was made to appeal to both Railfans and those who aren't, the subject was given a broad approach which I think works well! If any diehards aren't happy watching the show because it lacks the extreme accuracy they seek perhaps they shouldn't continue watching!
I also never stated in any shape or form that Rivet Counters were ruining the hobby!

 

[el3637]

Extreme trains was made to appeal to both Railfans and those who aren't, the subject was given a broad approach which I think works well! If any diehards aren't happy watching the show because it lacks the extreme accuracy they seek perhaps they shouldn't continue watching!

I think ET succeeded in that regard. I think those of us who do want more "hard core" information know better than to look for it on TV. I use History Channel as a backdrop for working on models, because it doesn't tax my brain much, and it's not near as annoying as most of the other stuff on TV these days. And I do learn some things, or - maybe learn just enough to want to go find a more in-depth source. The shows they do on space for instance - I'm not a physicist and in fact I barely passed the subject in high school, but I'm very much interested in the cosmic questions and anything that can stimulate my knowledge of quantum physics, multidimensional space, time, etc. is at least a start. If I were a physicist, I'd probably think of those shows the same way I think of ET as a life-long railfan and modeler.

The thing to consider about any TV show that professes to be educational - and the name "History Channel" implies that, even though it only delivers about 40% of the time - is how important is any given detail to the entire message? HC is notorious for using stock footage along with a narrative that tries to tie it to a specific event, often the results are downright amusing. One of them was during their program on the 1935 hurricane in the Florida Keys. Many RR workers were stranded on the islands and a train was eventually dispatched to begin taking them out, but it was too little too late. While describing the train rushing to save them, they show a stock film of a steam loco and passenger train. A *British* passenger train... LOL. No wonder it took so long to get there! That kind of thing doesn't take away from the story overall, but when you spot something that far out of whack, and realize that the producers either didn't know or didn't care, it makes you question the rest of their facts as well.

Anyway, maybe it's my chosen position on the rivet counter side of the fence, but it seems like there's more animosity directed at rivet counters than by rivet counters. I've seen plenty of both. Certainly rivet counters have behaved badly. It's not my intention to apologize for them, or defend them - they are what they are, individual people. But I do consider myself to be a rivet counter in spirit, if not literally. Much of what I model is welded anyway.

Andy

 

[Cjcrescent]

...

FWIW, "rivet counting" quite literally was coined to describe people who build models and strive for accuracy to the point that they, literally, count the rivets on the prototype and endeavor to replicate them - in quantity, quality, and location, on their model. While this is farther than most go, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. So I don't object to being called a rivet counter, I just object to being accused of ruining the hobby. The truth is, I have no desire to ruin your hobby nor do I have the POWER to ruin your hobby, nor does the collective Supreme Rivet Counting Council have the power to ruin your hobby. Only YOU can ruin your hobby. My hobby is alive and well thank you, and I'm enjoying it greatly. If the level at which I enjoy it is perceived by you as a threat, then you have a perception problem which I will not apologize for - however by way of explanation, I have no intent to ruin your hobby, nor interfere with your way of doing it by accusing you of trying to ruin it for me somehow...


Andy

Well said Andy, well said. BTW there is a SRCC meeting next Wed. night at 7:00. Will you be there?

I have been accused of being a rivet counter a time or two as well. The only time I am a rivet counter is in the contest room as a judge.

 

[el3637]

Well said Andy, well said. BTW there is a SRCC meeting next Wed. night at 7:00. Will you be there?

Seeing as how I don't know what, or where the SRCC meeting is, the answer is probably no... if you are in Alabama as your sig implies, I'm a good day's drive away anyway

Re. contests - that's another subject all together. Not something I participate in from either the entry or judging perspective.

Andy

 

[Cjcrescent]

Seeing as how I don't know what, or where the SRCC meeting is, the answer is probably no... if you are in Alabama as your sig implies, I'm a good day's drive away anyway

Re. contests - that's another subject all together. Not something I participate in from either the entry or judging perspective.

Andy

I'll see that you get a copy of the minutes!

Contests, bleh! I hear a lot of that, Andy. The contest is the only place I am a "rivet counter" I spent over 10 years as the SER contest chair. I also have judged in 4 Nationals. Some folks don't like the competition, but they forget its not a competition with anyone but themselves.

While I was "in charge" here I made all my judges READ what the modeler stated he did to build the model on the judging sheet. Part of the NMRA rules at that time, they have since changed, stated that the judge was under no obligation to do that. Plus they had to write on another sheet, why the modeler got or didn't get points. If the judge didn't write any thing he had to explain to the modeler in person! Since I started that procedure in 1981, there haven't been many complaints about the contests in the SER, compared to other regions. Besides making the judging more even handed, you also got to learn tons of new techniques. I don't know how many times I copied model judging sheets to learn things!

 

[el3637]

Some folks don't like the competition, but they forget its not a competition with anyone but themselves.

I agree. Which is why I have no need for judging. I can certainly understand wanting to learn techniques, but there are many ways to do that. I've also found people are more willing to share their techniques if they don't view me as a competitor.

Sometimes I've had the morbid curiosity - that if I were to submit my best model to an NMRA judge, if they could tell me anything about it I didn't already know. I've been given many suggestions, but I'm quite comfortable with my choices and my reasons. If I were to build the same model again today, I'd do a few things differently - in some cases due to parts that weren't available the first time, in other cases just an upping of my own abilities and standards. But I would never choose one method or material over another just because it would mean more points in a contest. I'm going to choose the method and material that gives me the best end result, within the constraints of my resources... both financial and skill.

Interesting because the NMRA is right now in the process of taking a look at the whole contest thing from the top down. One question being asked - and think with sincerity - is, what could the NMRA change about the contests that would get you interested in participating. My answer is "nothing", but perhaps my views are toward the radical end of the spectrum. A great many prototype modelers *might* be lured back to contests if changes were made. In that regard I just pass on what I hear, but it doesn't change my own feelings on the subject.

Randy Lee wrote an editorial a few years ago needling modelers who don't enter contests, and giving (and harpooning) a list of common reasons. Fear of competition, fear of failure, the judges aren't fair, the same guy always wins, etc. He did a good job of shooting down those perceived excuses, but he ignored some other reasons. He basically implied that any shirking of competition was taking an "I'm ok you're ok" or "politically correct" stand. Maybe that is how it is for some, but it's not the only reason.

I don't build models for contests. It's just that simple. Absolutely nothing about any of my models is decided based on how it would do in a contest - under anybody's rules. I am not on a crusade to put an end to contests, but I am in tune with why they have fallen out of vogue, and certainly with my own reasons.

Andy

 

[Cjcrescent]

I agree. Which is why I have no need for judging. I can certainly understand wanting to learn techniques, but there are many ways to do that. I've also found people are more willing to share their techniques if they don't view me as a competitor.

I know that I wasn't viewed as a competitor. I made it a policy also that if you judged, you didn't enter that contest. Everyone always shared techniques with me, but it was always better if I got hard copies. My memory wasn't that good then and its worse now!

Sometimes I've had the morbid curiosity - that if I were to submit my best model to an NMRA judge, if they could tell me anything about it I didn't already know. I've been given many suggestions, but I'm quite comfortable with my choices and my reasons. If I were to build the same model again today, I'd do a few things differently - in some cases due to parts that weren't available the first time, in other cases just an upping of my own abilities and standards. But I would never choose one method or material over another just because it would mean more points in a contest. I'm going to choose the method and material that gives me the best end result, within the constraints of my resources... both financial and skill.

That would depend Andy, on what the model was and how familiar the judge(s) were with the model, or the techniques used to achieve the effect you were after. Many times my judges or I could suggest one or two things technically on the model, but rarely could we comment on the model's specific prototype unless we were very familiar with it.

Interesting because the NMRA is right now in the process of taking a look at the whole contest thing from the top down. One question being asked - and think with sincerity - is, what could the NMRA change about the contests that would get you interested in participating. My answer is "nothing", but perhaps my views are toward the radical end of the spectrum. A great many prototype modelers *might* be lured back to contests if changes were made. In that regard I just pass on what I hear, but it doesn't change my own feelings on the subject.

This would be about the third time in about ten years the contest dept. volunteers have tried to change things to increase participation. Open judging, (where the room isn't sealed off from the convention), comment sheets, longer hours the room is open, rule changes. The Prototype Modelers split from the NMRA, because at the time, there was no "category" in the breakdown of the points in regard to what most prototype modelers do, which is kitbash. Scratchbuilding which used to be a huge part of the judging now isn't anywhere near as big anymore. The points allowed for each "part" has changed as well. Construction is still 40, Detailing is 20, Conformity is up to 25, Finish and Lettering is is up to 25, and Scratchbuilding is down to 15. Still there isn't a specific area that covers kitbashing, which I believe is a mistake, but there are special awards for best kitbash in locomotives, structures, rolling stock and caboose.

Randy Lee wrote an editorial a few years ago needling modelers who don't enter contests, and giving (and harpooning) a list of common reasons. Fear of competition, fear of failure, the judges aren't fair, the same guy always wins, etc. He did a good job of shooting down those perceived excuses, but he ignored some other reasons. He basically implied that any shirking of competition was taking an "I'm ok you're ok" or "politically correct" stand. Maybe that is how it is for some, but it's not the only reason.

Don't know how many times I heard all that here! Hey, I wonder if he read one of my articles in the region mag about the very same subject??

I don't build models for contests. It's just that simple. Absolutely nothing about any of my models is decided based on how it would do in a contest - under anybody's rules. I am not on a crusade to put an end to contests, but I am in tune with why they have fallen out of vogue, and certainly with my own reasons.
Andy

I don't build models for contests either. I have built several models for the AP program in the past, and I have several qualified judges here than if I need a model judged, I just take it to the club and get them to judge it. I don't enter contests because I'm like you, my modeling doesn't depend on how well a model does in "competition", although I do know some who feel that way.
I have to be satisfied with it, not anyone else. Like my Dad used to say, "Its my railroad, and I'll run it any way I d*** well please!"

 

[jtudor]

For myself, I was extremely happy to finally have just a few shows about trains in High Def. That in itself was well worth anything else that happened in the shows. I hope there will somehow be more.

 

[el3637]

I know that I wasn't viewed as a competitor. I made it a policy also that if you judged, you didn't enter that contest. Everyone always shared techniques with me, but it was always better if I got hard copies. My memory wasn't that good then and its worse now!

I wasn't referring necessarily to the judges, just modelers sharing techniques with each other.

The Prototype Modelers split from the NMRA, because at the time, there was no "category" in the breakdown of the points in regard to what most prototype modelers do, which is kitbash.

That was 24 years ago. I was not part of RPM at the time, so I only know the standard history on why RPM was formed. Yes it was a break from the contest, but the #1 and #2 issues were not kitbashing but conformity and contemporary modeling. That's why RPM was originally MPM, for Modern Prototype Modelers.

The creation of MPM, and subsequently RPM as more people got involved from all eras may have been precipitated over contest issues, but things have changed a lot since then. When I got on board, the main RPM thing was the NMRA national, and the RPM room still had a popular vote contest. Now the main RPM thing is individually hosted meets all over the place. I have literally lost track of all of them. Cocoa Beach, Savannah, LRM, St. Louis, New England, Bay Area, WPM, Naperville, Pittsburgh... some annual, some just whenever they can happen. NONE of these meets have contests anymore! WPM was the last, and it was dropped when it was realized that only about 20% of the displayed models were entered, and most people didn't vote and almost nobody paid any attention to who won.

What has evolved is a completely different culture. This is why most RPMers aren't interested in coming back to the NMRA contest even if they did change the rules. There are still people who do both.

I'm not going to proclaim that RPM is better than the NMRA contest, or that the models are better. Just that it's clearly better for me, and for those who continue to show up and bring hundreds of models.

I have suggested several times that the NMRA should have a big "show n' tell" room. I believe it has been done at some local/regional levels. It doesn't have to be prototype only. Someplace where paperwork isn't required, no judging is done, and conversation is encouraged rather than admonished ("Shhhhh! They're judging!!). I can't promise I'd come to a national convention just for that, but I'm more likely to do it than a contest.

I sort of think of myself as a pioneer when it comes to the concept of a model show-off or show n' tell. Although locally I think Jim Slaughter was the first to do this... he got a table at the division show, put his many L&N kitbashed diesels on the table, and got out his tools and a couple of projects and just sat there working on stuff and conversing. Beginning in 1979 I did the same thing, although I found that the conversing was non-stop and it was very difficult to actually do any work on anything. I had to smack people away from picking up the models. I've heard many variants on this comment: "You aren't selling these? and it's not a contest? then why are you here?"

IMO those that have to ask don't get it and never will. I'm not interested in those people. I've never been interested in converting anybody, just meeting like minded others - and the best way to do that is to reveal my own mind and see what it attracts. I must admit, it was slow going. I began displaying models in 1979, and I didn't get anyone outside my family to join up with me until 1994. In 1995 I went to my first national, and my first RPM room. Later that year my first Naperville seminar, and so on. This came about because I began going on line (in 1988) and posting to boards and forums, and I found that there *were* a lot of like-minded others around the world.

Andy

 

[Cjcrescent]

I wasn't referring necessarily to the judges, just modelers sharing techniques with each other.

I wasn't either, but the modelers were a lot more forthcoming if they didn't think you'd take their technique and "use it against them" next year.

You have to understand the climate we had in the contest at that time (1981) in our region. When I came into office, the last 3 winners of the best in show award were judges. How do you think that looks in a small region like ours was then? The room also was closed, and I heard the whispers about the judges had already picked all the winners before judging even started. A few years before, the contest chairman got up at the banquet, announced the best in show winner, then said no other model was good enough to win anything.
Starting that year no judge could enter any model in any contest he was judging in. And since the contests were then and still are a part of the AP Program, all ribbons for 1st, 2nd, third, and HM would be awarded. The real recognition would come via the Merit Awards any model that got above 87.5 pts would earn.

The next year came the comment sheets, then in 1985, I instituted open room judging. All I asked was that no contest entrant try to "point out" things on the model without a judge first asking a question. When I left the chair in 1992, many of these "reforms" were begining to be tried on the National level.

...but the #1 and #2 issues were not kitbashing but conformity and contemporary modeling. That's why RPM was originally MPM, for Modern Prototype Modelers.

I can see conformity being an issue, as at least the national has raised the points for that, and redifined the rules. I however, can't see contemporary being a issue as there was never a "division" in the contest that defined eras. An engine or car was judged strictly on what a modeler did to build it. Not for what era. An engine or car from the 1860's had the same chance to "win" as an engine or car from the 1920's, 1950's, 1980's. I do remember that scratchbuilding may have been a part as well? The NMRA contests at that time emphasized that over everything but construction. When you start with an Athearn SD40-2, the scratchbuilding points could be low.

The creation of MPM, and subsequently RPM as more people got involved from all eras may have been precipitated over contest issues, but things have changed a lot since then. When I got on board, the main RPM thing was the NMRA national, and the RPM room still had a popular vote contest. Now the main RPM thing is individually hosted meets all over the place. I have literally lost track of all of them. Cocoa Beach, Savannah, LRM, St. Louis, New England, Bay Area, WPM, Naperville, Pittsburgh... some annual, some just whenever they can happen. NONE of these meets have contests anymore! WPM was the last, and it was dropped when it was realized that only about 20% of the displayed models were entered, and most people didn't vote and almost nobody paid any attention to who won.

You know, I can actually say that I can understand why the RPM contest died. I "entered" a model in Eugene in 1987, {Joe Delia, (sp) took my card and put it by the model,} and another at Birmingham in 1988. I got a honorable mention at Eugene, and another in B'ham. There was no indication on the display cards who got what, popular vote or not. I was told only when I picked up the model. In talking to some of the folks who entered, at least from my area, during those weeks at Eugene and Birmingham, they would have liked some kind of recognition, other than an "Attaboy!", for the work they had done on the model. I did enjoy the "show and tell" aspect of the meet and encouraged that during my stint, but the show and tell never has really caught on here.

What has evolved is a completely different culture. This is why most RPMers aren't interested in coming back to the NMRA contest even if they did change the rules. There are still people who do both.

I'm not going to proclaim that RPM is better than the NMRA contest, or that the models are better. Just that it's clearly better for me, and for those who continue to show up and bring hundreds of models.

You must do, Andy, what you enjoy, not what someone's else idea of the hobby is. That's why I have always said that there is no correct way to model railroad. What you do to enjoy the hobby may not work for me, but we're both enjoying it. Who's "wrong?" answer, no one.

I have suggested several times that the NMRA should have a big "show n' tell" room. I believe it has been done at some local/regional levels. It doesn't have to be prototype only. Someplace where paperwork isn't required, no judging is done, and conversation is encouraged rather than admonished ("Shhhhh! They're judging!!). I can't promise I'd come to a national convention just for that, but I'm more likely to do it than a contest.

FWIW "Shhhh! They're judging!", wasn't allowed here while I was chair. Conversation among the attendees/entrants was encouraged. But as I earlier said, don't talk to the judges unless they ask you a question first. They're too busy talking among them selves about the models when judging to even notice the room noise.

We have tried to have a "show and tell" room here in the SER, but its never been a real success. Seems most of the members here want the recognition that a merit award, not a ribbon or plaque, (although they are nice too), gives them. We have always pushed the AP program here, and we get a lot of participation in it.

...I had to smack people away from picking up the models. I've heard many variants on this comment: "You aren't selling these? and it's not a contest? then why are you here?"

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt!

IMO those that have to ask don't get it and never will. I'm not interested in those people. I've never been interested in converting anybody, just meeting like minded others - and the best way to do that is to reveal my own mind and see what it attracts. I must admit, it was slow going. I began displaying models in 1979, and I didn't get anyone outside my family to join up with me until 1994. In 1995 I went to my first national, and my first RPM room. Later that year my first Naperville seminar, and so on. This came about because I began going on line (in 1988) and posting to boards and forums, and I found that there *were* a lot of like-minded others around the world.

Andy

If they have to ask, then in my mind, its they don't know, not they don't get it. This is the time when you explain what's going on. I've done this at different local, regional, and even a couple of national events. You get a lot more people becoming interested, in finding more out about the hobby, and even possibly becoming a model railroader. Maybe even getting excited enough to join the NMRA! Any time is the right time to promote the hobby.

But that doesn't make what you do anymore correct than what I do, and never will. You're enjoying yourself in a manner that pleases you, and I'm doing the same.

 

[el3637]

Starting that year no judge could enter any model in any contest he was judging in.

I would think that would go without saying. Although if you don't have very many entries or qualified judges, the contest might end up just being dinner for two.

I can see conformity being an issue, as at least the national has raised the points for that. I however, can't see contemporary being a issue as there was never a "division" in the contest that defined eras. An engine or car was judged strictly on what a modeler did to build it. Not for what era. An engine or car from the 1860's had the same chance to "win" as an engine or car from the 1920's, 1950's, 1980's.

In theory yes. In practice, that 1860s critter had a far better chance of winning than a 1980s diesel, just because the judges knew nothing of the 1980s diesel. At least that was one of the complaints when MPM first spun off. As far as I know NMRA still has the all-encompassing "Diesel and Other" category. It's a lingering remnant of steam era snobbery, which still continues in some circles. I know back in 1998 I belonged to the original "Freight Car List". It was one of the very first focused mailing lists of any kind devoted to model railroading. This is pre-Yahoo, pre everything. I announced that I was going to start up a Diesel Modelers List. Several FCL people commented, "there really isn't a need for that is there?" I don't know if that was an attempt at a joke or what, but - it typifies the attitude. BTW, my Diesel List will turn 11 years old in April. 355 current subscribers. It isn't the biggest list out there and is now one of hundreds.

You know I can actually say that I can understand why the RPM contest died. I "entered" a model in Eugene in 1987, {Joe Delia, (sp) took my card and placed it by the model,} and another at Birmingham in 1988. I got a honorable mention at Eugene, and third place in B'ham. There was no indication on the display cards who got what, popular vote or not. I was told only when I picked up the model. In talking to the folks at least from my area, during those weeks at Eugene and Birmingham, they would have liked some kind of recognition, other than an "Attaboy!", for the work they had done on the model. I did enjoy the "show and tell" aspect of the meet.

Again, you perfectly illustrate the cultural difference. It's nice to know that some years before I got involved in RPM, the contest was already down to a pretty low priority in terms of who cared or bothered.

You must do, Andy, what you enjoy, not what someone's else idea of the hobby is. That's why I have always said that there is no correct way to model railroad. What you do to enjoy the hobby may not work for me, but we're both enjoying it. Who's "wrong?" answer, no one.

I think the NMRA has value as an "umbrella" organization. I think the hobby still needs it, but it *must* become more inclusive if membership is to grow at all, much less return to the peak levels enjoyed in the past. Getting the RPMers back is a small piece of the pie, and perhaps more difficult than it's worth. The new administration has really made some strides, but a lot of the changes have not really been implemented yet. Scale Rails is certainly enormously better than it was before Steve Priest too over. Although I've never really believed SR should be a magazine on the order of an MR or RMC. It should be about the NMRA and provide the members with news and information first, and showcase articles second. I'm seeing that now with the substantial articles on the MMR program, Mike Brestel's monthly column, etc.

I have kept my NMRA membership. I don't do many NMRA activities and very few that are members only. I make it to maybe one meeting a year, if there's something of interest going on.

We have tried to have a "show and tell" room here in the SER, but its never been a real success. Seems most of the members here want the recognition that a merit award, not a ribbon or plaque gives them. We have always pushed the AP program here, and we get a lot of participation in it.

Regional and divisional culture may have a lot to do with it. My division is what you would call a "strong" division. Well attended monthly meetings, with programs, layout tours, etc. They do have a monthly contest which is sparse... there are often default winners in various categories and no entries at all in some. Having a monthly show n' tell along with the meeting would be a start but I doubt it would catch on - it just goes against the groupthink there. "What for?" I think most can comprehend building without the purpose of an award, but showing without an award just seems alien. Which is somewhat strange because the same folks will go on layout tours till the cows come home, and that's nothing but show n' tell. Maybe it's the notion of focusing on an individual model - often built by someone who doesn't even have their own layout - that is alien. Thus has been coined the term "railroad modeler" to describe such a person (as opposed to "model railroader"). I think all this labeling is silly and when I start getting pressed to define myself by one or another label, I'm more likely to start telling anecdotes (like this thread!) than to stick myself into someone's preconceived mailbox. They're gonna do it anyway ("@^#%%%^ rivet counter", "proto snob", "kitbasher", "armchair modeler", "unbalanced"... etc) so why help them.

the time when you explain what's going on. I've done this at different local, regional, and even a couple of national events. You get a lot more people becoming interested, in finding more out about the hobby, and even possibly becoming a model railroader. Maybe even getting excited enough to join the NMRA! Any time is the right time to promote the hobby.

Oh, I explain. I just know that most people that don't get it still won't get it after my explanation. That's ok. I'm not an evangelist. I'm very fond of the adage "attraction rather than promotion". Even if I'm not very attractive, at least I know those who are attracted are on the same wavelength - they are responding to the real me, not something I'm pretending to be.

One thing I first heard decades ago sticks in my mind yet today. I was having a discussion with Steve Mazza and Mike Brestel - both of the late great Walt's Hobby Shop. Probably around 1975-76. We were talking about clubs, the NMRA, etc. Steve said something I had not previously realized: 75% of model railroaders are lone wolves. All of the politics of NMRA and other organizations, formal or informal, large or small, comprise only around 1/4 of the hobby. In the 30+ years that have passed, some things have not changed - we may have even *more* lone wolves than before. However - we have the internet. The internet is populated by everybody, and those who participate seem to be a pretty good mix of NMRA members, clubbers, and lone wolves. For the first time, the lone wolf has somebody to talk to besides the guy at the hobby shop. He may still be a lone wolf, but - in terms of information, he no longer has to go join a social organization to be aware of what other people with common interests are up to.

Even though I began doing shows in 1979, I was for all intents and purposes a lone wolf until I got on line in November of 1988. That's where I found all those people who really are a lot like me - I didn't find them at the NMRA meetings or in other clubs, and I still don't find them there for the most part.

The really, really huge thing that has happened since the millenium rolled over is that the mainstream NMRA folks are now participating in this medium. It's a great equalizer, and the officers seem to have lost their fear of a street brawl, realizing they need to get down and dirty if their organization is to survive and grow. They no longer have the luxury of dismissing the critics as being "2% whiners". I am fascinated by this process and I await to see what it might bring, while acknowledging what it has already brought.

Andy

 

[Cjcrescent]

I would think that would go without saying. Although if you don't have very many entries or qualified judges, the contest might end up just being dinner for two.

Nope, the fewest entries we had while I was chair was my last year. Then we had about 30.

In theory yes. In practice, that 1860s critter had a far better chance of winning than a 1980s diesel, just because the judges knew nothing of the 1980s diesel. At least that was one of the complaints when MPM first spun off. As far as I know NMRA still has the all-encompassing "Diesel and Other" category. It's a lingering remnant of steam era snobbery, which still continues in some circles.

Don't know where you got your information from Andy, but here you are incorrect. What a judge knows and doesn't know about a prototype has almost no bearing on how a model is judged, other than familiarity. First, the judge may know absolutely nothing about that 1860 critter or the 1980 diesel. What he does know however, is on the Judges score sheet that the modeler fills out, telling the judge what he did to build the model. Also one judge will not judge the entire model. He will judge only construction, but construction on every model. Someone else will judge details, another conformity etc.

I know back in 1998 I belonged to the original "Freight Car List". It was one of the very first focused mailing lists of any kind devoted to model railroading. ...Several FCL people commented, "there really isn't a need for that is there?" I don't know if that was an attempt at a joke or what, but - it typifies the attitude. ...

I'm glad that your list has lasted as long as it has, and I hope that it grows even more. As to -it typifies the attitude.., I think that could be a wrong perception on the part of the members of the FCL list, or simply agitators, trying to get a rise out of you and maybe a few others who had expressed interest in such a list. It could also had been a case of the game where the first person says something to another person, who says it to a third and so on, until when it gets back to the 1st person its not even close to what was really said.

I think the NMRA has value as an "umbrella" organization. I think the hobby still needs it, but it *must* become more inclusive if membership is to grow at all, much less return to the peak levels enjoyed in the past. Getting the RPMers back is a small piece of the pie, and perhaps more difficult than it's worth. The new administration has really made some strides, but a lot of the changes have not really been implemented yet. ...

I agree that getting the NMRA to become more inclusive is something that is not only a good idea, but is as you say a must! The big problem, as I see it, is first finding someone who can set this kind of program up and is willing to do so. Then identify members in the different geographical areas willing to approach the "other groups" in their area. Assuming the other groups can be identified and are willing to listen to the NMRA. IMHO these are just some of the questions that must be answered before those first meetings even take place.

I have kept my NMRA membership. I don't do many NMRA activities and very few that are members only. I make it to maybe one meeting a year, if there's something of interest going on.

Regional and divisional culture may have a lot to do with it. My division is what you would call a "strong" division. Well attended monthly meetings, with programs, layout tours, etc. They do have a monthly contest which is sparse... there are often default winners in various categories and no entries at all in some...

Oh, I explain. I just know that most people that don't get it still won't get it after my explanation. That's ok. I'm not an evangelist. I'm very fond of the adage "attraction rather than promotion".

We have a strong division here as well. Meetings, clinics the whole shebang. There isn't much difference between us at all.
I'm not an "evangelist" either Andy. Please don't take this the wrong way but, if it seems that most people "still won't get it after my explanation", then maybe somethings wrong with the explanation or its delivery.

One thing I first heard decades ago sticks in my mind yet today. I was having a discussion with Steve Mazza and Mike Brestel - both of the late great Walt's Hobby Shop. Probably around 1975-76. We were talking about clubs, the NMRA, etc. Steve said something I had not previously realized: 75% of model railroaders are lone wolves. All of the politics of NMRA and other organizations, formal or informal, large or small, comprise only around 1/4 of the hobby. In the 30+ years that have passed, some things have not changed - we may have even *more* lone wolves than before.

Sorry, not familiar with Walt's, but we had the same kind of shop in Mobile, Al. when I lived there. This was The Train Depot, of Roy Keeley. Great shop! I worked there part time for almost 12 yrs. One thing that Roy had was a card file on every model railroader that was more than an occasional customer. The card had things like scale, guage, layout (y/n), etc. At that time there was the one MR club in town with 15 members. There were 35 NMRA members, 15 Region members, and over 200 "lone wolves" within 100 miles of the shop. So I agree with what you say.

However - we have the internet. The internet is populated by everybody, and those who participate seem to be a pretty good mix of NMRA members, clubbers, and lone wolves. For the first time, the lone wolf has somebody to talk to besides the guy at the hobby shop. ...

Yes, now we have the internet, and we do have a pretty diverse group online. However even in a town as large as Birmingham, not everyone is online who is a modeler. While the internet is a superb place for information, discussions, photos etc, if you don't have access you're reduced to that LHS owner, the club, local meets and the mags .

Even though I began doing shows in 1979, I was for all intents and purposes a lone wolf until I got on line in November of 1988. That's where I found all those people who really are a lot like me - I didn't find them at the NMRA meetings or in other clubs, and I still don't find them there for the most part.

I believe you. I can see your point, but I believe that unless you go to these meetings regularly, you tend to lose chances to make the very contacts that you seek.

The really, really huge thing that has happened since the millenium rolled over is that the mainstream NMRA folks are now participating in this medium. ... They no longer have the luxury of dismissing the critics as being "2% whiners". I am fascinated by this process and I await to see what it might bring, while acknowledging what it has already brought.

Andy

Great thoughts Andy! (2% whiners, don't think I've heard that one before!)

I don't know about you, but I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. It seems that we do have thoughts along similar lines. Who knows, you might even be the one individual who could show me where the main rods, and stoker are located on a diesel and I could show you where the dynamics and turbos are located on a steamer!