New to the hobby - trying to pick a control system.

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RCJunction

New Member
SITUATION: I've decided that my first layout will be an NTrak module for use with a local NTrak club. As I participate in club activities, I can learn more about the hobby and better educate myself for working on a fixed, full-sized layout later. The club uses DigiTrax, and they've informed me that, if I want to control my trains on their layouts, I will need a DigiTrax throttle. I'm ok with that, and I don't want to make waves. DigiTrax is not the system I want to use at home going forward, but I wouldn't mind springing for a UT4D, if that's all I would need. Remembering function numbers and programming CV codes all just seems unnecessarily cumbersome - not to mention the fact that the display on the throttles typically consists of little more than a couple lines of various code numbers on a LCD. Up to this point, my research has had me all but settled on RailPro. Then tonight I watched a few YouTube videos on the Roco Z21 system, and I've gotta say, I was impressed.

Some of the more notable points of both:

RailPro
Pros

  • Wireless command system
  • *Extremely* effective consisting
  • Nice touch screen interface
  • Much more intuitive setup than typical DCC systems
Cons
  • Proprietary
  • Sound/Image files need to be processed by, then downloaded from Ring Engineering?
  • Touch screen is a bit on the small side
  • No N-scale support at this time

Z21
Pros
  • Operates using the industry standard DCC command system
  • *Much* nicer interface available on smart phone, tablet and PC
  • Allows operation using other brands of throttles (this could be a solution for running with my NTrak club, saving me from investing in a DigiTrax system I don't really want)
Cons
  • It's probably even less popular in the US than RailPro, so there may be a lack community resources
  • I know even less about the company that makes Roco products than I do about Ring Engineering (RailPro)

Does anyone have any insight that might give me a better perspective on these systems?
Are there other similar (i.e. "more modern") systems out there that have proven themselves and I should be considering?

-Rich
 
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Don't let them push you into a system you don't want. They don't OWN the hobby! Just because THEY are STUCK with digitrax does not mean you must be also! I am new to the hobby and after much deliberation I'm using an NCE system. It can do all the cv functioning you may need and it is easy to understand. The controller provides real information that is understandable and not just code like some thing from the Matrix and wireless is an option. In N scale you should be able to run 20 locos on the 5 amp system! I'm in HO scale and am running 9 at a time with no trouble.
 
I've been using Digitrax for years and still haven't figured it out.
After running on a friend's layout I'll be switching to Railpro when the exchange rate recovers.
Right now Ring doesn't have N scale decoder as far as I know. That might be a deciding factor for you.
 


I recall reading something recently that RailPro does not support N scale at this time. I don't know how accurate that statement is, it's just what I read.
I would suggest, even though I use NCE and really like it, that if the club you are going to become involved with uses Digitrax that that is the way you should go. There are two reasons for this:
1: You will become familiar with what the club uses, allowing you to more fully participate.
2: When (not IF) you run into problems at home, there will be more people who can help you through the issue.
While New Guy is correct in that it is ultimately your personal decision, these are things you should keep in mind.
Welcome to the hobby and the board!
 
Roco and Fleischmann have been around a long time and the make quality products.

The Z21 is a top notch, state of the art DCC system.

The Z21 features multiple control buses making it very versatile when in comes to using other brands of equipment.

You can use a phone/tablet as your handheld "throttle" by installing the Z21 app. If you prefer a more "traditional" handheld throttle, you can use a Roco Multimaus. They have announced a WiFi version of this throttle.

Due to the multiple buses there are other handheld throttle you can use.


I recently removed all of my Digitrax command stations and boosters and replaced them with a Z21.

With the Digitrax command stations I had to use a Soundtraxx PTB-100 "booster" to obtain reliable programming of most sound decoder equipped locos.

The Z21 seems to be working fine on it's own with it comes to programming them.

Very happy with the Z21.


As to RailPro it depends, to a certain extent, on how comfortable you would be putting all your eggs in one basket.

I'm not that kind of person.

And there are other similar systems coming from bigger manufactures.

Time will tell on those systems but you can be sure that DCC is here now, well understand, widely supported and is not going anywhere of a good long while.
 
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Don't let them push you into a system you don't want. They don't OWN the hobby! Just because THEY are STUCK with digitrax does not mean you must be also! I am new to the hobby and after much deliberation I'm using an NCE system. It can do all the cv functioning you may need and it is easy to understand. The controller provides real information that is understandable and not just code like some thing from the Matrix and wireless is an option. In N scale you should be able to run 20 locos on the 5 amp system! I'm in HO scale and am running 9 at a time with no trouble.

If I were to just stick with "conventional" DCC, in a vacuum I would probably prefer NCE slightly over DigiTrax, if for no other reason than the fact that I like their throttles better (from what I can tell). At this point my plan is simply to purchase a DigiTrax UT4D for use with my NTrak layout during club events. I'm hoping that's the only DigiTrax equipment I will need to buy, and that I can just power it all from the club layout (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that). My fixed home layout will be exactly what I want. "My railroad, my rules." :)

@fcwilt - Thank you very much for your comments on the Z21. I was hoping to find someone with some experience with it. My understanding is that the Z21 will program other brands of decoders as well, such as DigiTrax. Is that correct? The reason I ask is I don't see any N-scale decoders available from Roco, but it appears that it works fine with a wide range of scales, including N.
 
SITUATION: I've decided that my first layout will be an NTrak module for use with a local NTrak club. As I participate in club activities, I can learn more about the hobby and better educate myself for working on a fixed, full-sized layout later.
Is the full-sized layout going to be N-scale? If so, I don't even know why you would be considering RailPro unless you are planning on putting the receiver in a box car and rigging some sort of custom wiring harness to the locomotive.
Remembering function numbers and programming CV codes all just seems unnecessarily cumbersome
What function numbers are you having to remember? All the systems I use have a button that says Horn, Headlight, Bell, etc. I really seldom think Oh yes Headlight is sending F0 to the loco. The only remembering I ever have to do is when I am running someone else's locomotive who has gone in and customized a bunch of stuff. In running DCC for over 20 years now, I can only think of a couple times I had to remember something like, "on this particular brand of loco that F9 F9 was the reset and restart of the sound". Oh yeah, and once I looked up which functions I needed to select to do the Doppler effect for a video we were making. These are not the sort of thing that is going to be programmed into the Roco system by default.

Then tonight I watched a few YouTube videos on the Roco Z21 system,
The Roco is one DCC system that I have never used. For the tablet control I like the view that it has where one is looking at the actual control panel of the locomotive and is viewing out of the cab window; however from their information I was unable to determine if that option is available for any North American locomotives diesel, electric, or steam; or in N-scale. Are you planning on running European equipment?

Allows operation using other brands of throttles (this could be a solution for running with my NTrak club, saving me from investing in a DigiTrax system I don't really want)
I don't understand this statement, nor can I find anything about it on the Roco web site. But DigiTrax throttle run on a proprietary throttle bus called loconet. Unless Roco has paid licensing fees their throttles cannot work with Digitraxx command units and vice versa.

As for using a smart phone for a throttle, I don't understand the desire to do such a thing. If not the "in cab" experience of above, then I want to be watching my train run not looking at an electronic screen. So for that part I have no comment, other than I noticed if you buy this unit they recommend also buying the "Multi Central Pro DCC system with Rocomotion program". I am guessing that is where you have to program all the DCC functions to screen buttons stuff that you don't want to have to remember.

If price is a consideration, and if I am reading the prices right, and doing the euro calculation right, that is a MSLP or about $847 for the system assuming use of a smart phone.

I was going to recommend you look at the Zimo system, but it seems they are in some sort of system upgrade mode right now. Neither their old nor the new products are available at the moment. Wonder whats up with that?!? Then the Bachmann Dynamis Ultra looks like it has a similar interface to the Roco but in mono-tone color. Would probably be much cheaper than the Roco. Once again the caveat here is that (like the Roco) I've never even seen a Bachmann Dynamis Ultra, let alone experienced one, so I don't know how much this input is worth. :confused:
 
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The requirements of programming of DCC decoders is defined by the NMRA standards.

The Z21 can program any DCC compliant decoder.


One of the control buses that the Z21 supports is LocoNet.

You can, if you want, connect a Digitrax throttle to the Z21.

You cannot connect a Roco Multimaus throttle to a Digitrax command station because the Multimaus does not use a Loconet bus.


Here is a link that may be of interest...

http://www.z21.eu/en/FAQ-Support/FAQ

It shows the various control buses the Z21 supports and examples of what devices can be used each bus.


The "Multi Central Pro DCC system with Rocomotion program" is an older system and is not related to the Z21.

The Z21 does everything you would expect a DCC command station to do: running trains, throwing turnouts (assuming DCC controlled), programming decoders, etc.

The "Rocomotion" program is used to automate your layout. It is a stripped down version of Train Controller. If you want this type of program just go with Train Controller.


 
It's funny...maybe odd....dunno. I see a lot of people saying they are confounded by Digitrax. I am not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but I got used to my old DB150 and the old DT400 throttles rather quickly, especially once I read through the manual a couple of times and played with the buttons to get the mind-set of what they actually do. Contrary to Fred's experience, my DB150, again an old design that's been around for donkey's years, has never met a decoder it couldn't spank, whether in Paged Mode or in Ops Mode. And I have decoders from BLI, QSI, Soundtraxx, and ESU. Probably the most reluctant to play nice are the Tsunami variants, but I can acquire address "00" on my throttle and use either mode of programming to get those decoders to reset, change address, and to programme the various CV's.

One thing nice about the DT series of throttles is that they have two throttles on the one paddle. That is, there are two encoder knobs that you twist clockwise for throttle up, and when you double click them, they place the locomotive in reverse and you can throttle up going backwards. I have never had to use a battery in either of my two DT's, and never even installed one. I leave mine tethered to the DB150 permanently.

I don't intend to sell Digitrax, just to say that I have had only the one system all my DCC life, and that is the Super Empire Builder. I works. Even for me. Reliably, the same way, no surprises, and no puzzles.
 
SITUATION: I've decided that my first layout will be an NTrak module for use with a local NTrak club. As I participate in club activities, I can learn more about the hobby and better educate myself for working on a fixed, full-sized layout later. The club uses DigiTrax, and they've informed me that, if I want to control my trains on their layouts, I will need a DigiTrax throttle. I'm ok with that, and I don't want to make waves. DigiTrax is not the system I want to use at home going forward, but I wouldn't mind springing for a UT4D, if that's all I would need. Remembering function numbers and programming CV codes all just seems unnecessarily cumbersome - not to mention the fact that the display on the throttles typically consists of little more than a couple lines of various code numbers on a LCD. Up to this point, my research has had me all but settled on RailPro. Then tonight I watched a few YouTube videos on the Roco Z21 system, and I've gotta say, I was impressed.

Some of the more notable points of both:

RailPro
Pros

  • Wireless command system
  • *Extremely* effective consisting
  • Nice touch screen interface
  • Much more intuitive setup than typical DCC systems
Cons
  • Proprietary
  • Sound/Image files need to be processed by, then downloaded from Ring Engineering?
  • Touch screen is a bit on the small side
  • No N-scale support at this time

Z21
Pros
  • Operates using the industry standard DCC command system
  • *Much* nicer interface available on smart phone, tablet and PC
  • Allows operation using other brands of throttles (this could be a solution for running with my NTrak club, saving me from investing in a DigiTrax system I don't really want)
Cons
  • It's probably even less popular in the US than RailPro, so there may be a lack community resources
  • I know even less about the company that makes Roco products than I do about Ring Engineering (RailPro)

Does anyone have any insight that might give me a better perspective on these systems?
Are there other similar (i.e. "more modern") systems out there that have proven themselves and I should be considering?

-Rich

With RailPro I can record my own locomotive sounds to my locomotives without going through Ring Engineering, that is also true for loco images.

I went directly from a DC operation to RailPro several years ago and I have absolutely no regrets. This system works beautifully, easy to install and operate.

Cheers
Mel
 


Is the full-sized layout going to be N-scale? If so, I don't even know why you would be considering RailPro unless you are planning on putting the receiver in a box car and rigging some sort of custom wiring harness to the locomotive.

As I mentioned, for the N-Trak layout, I would be purchasing a Digitrax DT4D. At this point my home layout will be HO, and that's where I would use the Z21 (or RailPro or whatever system I settle on).

What function numbers are you having to remember? All the systems I use have a button that says Horn, Headlight, Bell, etc. I really seldom think Oh yes Headlight is sending F0 to the loco. The only remembering I ever have to do is when I am running someone else's locomotive who has gone in and customized a bunch of stuff. In running DCC for over 20 years now, I can only think of a couple times I had to remember something like, "on this particular brand of loco that F9 F9 was the reset and restart of the sound". Oh yeah, and once I looked up which functions I needed to select to do the Doppler effect for a video we were making. These are not the sort of thing that is going to be programmed into the Roco system by default.

Upon closer inspection of the DT402, I do see the symbols for bell, lights, coupler and I'm assuming the 2-button is the horn (can't tell for sure what that symbol is from the photos). Do you have to program those functions, or is that covered by the NMRA DCC standard? Also, when selecting a loco to control, I would much rather select it by name or, better yet, by its image.

The Roco is one DCC system that I have never used. For the tablet control I like the view that it has where one is looking at the actual control panel of the locomotive and is viewing out of the cab window; however from their information I was unable to determine if that option is available for any North American locomotives diesel, electric, or steam; or in N-scale. Are you planning on running European equipment?

Nope, and while that seems like a neat feature, it's not one that interests me most about the product. Personally I would prefer the default control scheme to the cab view, which appears to require two-touch operations for everything (touch the control to bring up the lever, then touch again to operate the lever).

I don't understand this statement, nor can I find anything about it on the Roco web site. But DigiTrax throttle run on a proprietary throttle bus called loconet. Unless Roco has paid licensing fees their throttles cannot work with Digitraxx command units and vice versa.

As fcwilt pointed out, the Z21 supports LocoNet. You can plug DigiTrax throttles directly into it. I believe the DigiTrax throttles can also be connected wirelessly as well, but I need to do further research to confirm that.

As for using a smart phone for a throttle, I don't understand the desire to do such a thing. If not the "in cab" experience of above, then I want to be watching my train run not looking at an electronic screen. So for that part I have no comment, other than I noticed if you buy this unit they recommend also buying the "Multi Central Pro DCC system with Rocomotion program". I am guessing that is where you have to program all the DCC functions to screen buttons stuff that you don't want to have to remember.

Smartphone, DT402D, either way you either look at the throttle to operate it, or you get familiar enough to do it without looking. I don't actually see myself using the camera feature, as like you said, there aren't many (if any) North American locos that implement it. Still, a view from the cab of your train, as it rolls around your layout would be pretty cool...sometimes. It wouldn't have to be an either/or thing.

If price is a consideration, and if I am reading the prices right, and doing the euro calculation right, that is a MSLP or about $847 for the system assuming use of a smart phone.

I don't think that's correct - at least not for someone in my shoes. Mine would be a fairly simple layout, likely for quite some time. Later, as the layout grows and becomes more complex, I expect I would be investing more in the system. Of course that's pretty much the case with any of them, right? ;)

I was going to recommend you look at the Zimo system, but it seems they are in some sort of system upgrade mode right now. Neither their old nor the new products are available at the moment. Wonder whats up with that?!? Then the Bachmann Dynamis Ultra looks like it has a similar interface to the Roco but in mono-tone color. Would probably be much cheaper than the Roco. Once again the caveat here is that (like the Roco) I've never even seen a Bachmann Dynamis Ultra, let alone experienced one, so I don't know how much this input is worth. :confused:

I've not heard of Zimo. Though if what you say is correct, it's probably a non-starter for me. [EDIT: HOLY CRAP! $2-grand for the basic Zimo starter set - and that's without wireless!] I've seen very little regarding the Bachmann Dynamis Ultra, but what I have seen has been as much negative as positive.

I realize that I'm "the new guy" with this stuff, and I didn't mean to rub anyone the wrong way or buck the system with my impressions of current mainstream DCC systems. I do also realize that my opinions at this point are based on very little, compared to the experiences of those who have been in it for decades. I can appreciate that people who have used DigiTrax for such a long time can program and operate it in their sleep. Coming in with a fresh perspective, however, it just strikes me as an interface that has not kept pace with what not only is possible, but expected in this day and age. I guess it just boils down simply to the fact that it just may not be the right choice for me, when other systems may come closer to meeting my own interests and expectations.

@fcwilt - If I may ask, have you seen the effectiveness of speed matching and consisting with the RailPro system? Does the Z21 system come close to that, or, being DCC, is it pretty much the same as any other DCC system? I found the load sharing feature in RailPro more than a little impressive. https://youtu.be/xk0WLpqwfO0?t=406
 
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@fcwilt - If I may ask, have you seen the effectiveness of speed matching and consisting with the RailPro system? Does the Z21 system come close to that, or, being DCC, is it pretty much the same as any other DCC system? I found the load sharing feature in RailPro more than a little impressive. https://youtu.be/xk0WLpqwfO0?t=406

The Z21 is a DCC system and unless I missed something it does NOT have any special speed matching functions.

My layout is automated with Train Controller.

With a new loco you perform a process called "profiling".

To setup your layout for profiling you install sensors so that Train Controller can tell when the loco reaches either end of a section of track of a known length.

When you start the profiling process Train Controller runs the loco forward and backward at each speed step over this section of track.

Train Controller then determines the scale speed the loco will run at for each speed step, in each direction.

After this is done you can use any 2 or more locos together and Train Controller insures that they are run at the same speed.

This applies as well to trains that you run manually using a handheld throttle so I never actually have had to do any "DCC consisting".

But any form of dynamic load sharing would require features that DCC does not have.

There is a NMRA spec for DCC decoders that supports bi-directional communication but it is not so common. The Z21 supports this spec but, naturally, it only works with decoders that support that spec.

In practice speed matching as done in Train Controller works just fine but dynamic load sharing would be neat.
 
it just strikes me as an interface that has not kept pace with what not only is possible, but expected in this day and age.

You are quite correct that the Digitrax system, while generally well made and reliable, is showing it's age.

That's why I found the Z21 so appealing as it was a fresh start, from a trust worthy company, supporting a wire range of hardware and providing both "touch screen" and "traditional" throttles.

Both forms of wireless throttles are WiFi based rather then, say, the Digitrax system which is proprietary.

For folks like me who have an automated layout it has the built-in network connection.
 




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