New Layout

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bklynman01

Active Member
Hello everyone! I finally have my bench work put together (5'x9'), and thought that I had my track plan finalized. But since the track is not yet laid, of course I'm adjusting constantly. If I could borrow some time from a few of you to look at the plan, that would be great. The plan is to have the green line stay at elevation 0, and go into a tunnel for the top half of the layout. The yellow line will elevate up using a 2.5% grade to be about 1.75 inches up at the point of the turnout on the top side. From that turnout, the spur goes out to a coal mine in a mountain with a 3.5% grade. The 3.5% is intentionally steep to make it seem like a difficult place to get to (scenery work will help show this). Also, the two side lings on the left and bottom of the layout will be used later to expand to another section of layout to be added. The layout will be accessible on three sides, with the left side against a wall. I'm not sure about the passenger station in the middle, but put it in the plan in case. I want to put something in there, just not completely sure yet.

Any input? Criticism is welcomed! I put a 3D picture in there because I thought it was cool the software can do that (SCARM). Of course it doesn't show scenery intent.

Thanks!

Phase 1 Passenger Station Layout r2 3D.jpgPhase 1 Passenger Station Layout r2.jpg
 
Well I can't believe that. The forum just ate my rather long reply.... grumble.... Here is an abbreviated version.

Try again.
1. If you have the space to expand off those two blue tracks in the front, it might be better to include that space and design the whole thing. The from that plan work backword to develop a phase 1 design.
2. Basically looks like two loops, with a coal mine and a loopty loop to get to a passenger station. Unless you have an operating plan in mind, I think that will get pretty old pretty quick.
3. I would include the whole coal mine trackage just to be certain what you have in mind is going to fit.
4. As designed, to get from the outside loop to the passenger station is a logistical nightmare. Either the train has to back up through most of the yellow loop and the entire inside blue loop, OR it has to zig-zag back, forward, back. Technically it would be best to put the passenger station off the outside large radius loop (looks to be about 28" radius, correct?)

If you gave us some idea of the concept you are tying to implement it would help with the constructive criticism. Do you already have equipment that you are designing around?
 
Thank you very much for the feedback. I will try to answer to my best ability...
1. You mean to design the final layout, phase 1, 2, 3... whatever, and then separate into segments. I think I understand what you mean. Really, the most I thought into the next phase is a freight yard and a turn table. I am trying to leave my options open - the long term plan includes moving out of our current house in about 5 to 7 years to somewhere bigger. So this is more difficult than it sounds. I know that I want the freight yard close by, so I can at least put that together.
2. Originally, I wanted the coal mine and the passenger line to be separate. That's why I'm not set on the passenger station. I tried to put a double slip switch between the blue line and the yellow line, but it just doesn't seem right, and I'm worried about the reliability of the double slip. Maybe just a freight station in the middle? An ice house, and a freight depot might fit. The mainlines are my priority right now.
3. For the coal line, the one track up is my priority. Depending on what model I find (or decide to scratch build), there may be two tracks that service the mine itself. I'm confident that I'll be able to fit in something that will look right.
4. I see what you're talking about. Maybe changing the direction of the switches at the bottom? It would allow green to yellow to blue in one pass. Also, going from the coal mine to the main line would be a bit easier. That's a simple change, right turnouts to left turnouts would fix that.

The minimum radius I used is 22" for the passenger lead in. The main lines have a 24" and 28" radii. Because of the time period, I want to keep my options open for larger equipment. Right now, my largest "in-stock" option is a 2-8-4 locomotive. Since I want to stick with the PRR, New York Central's articulating locomotives won't be prototypical, but acceptable (I do like the idea behind them, and wouldn't mind running one).

Not sure if this is enough information, but hopefully its enough to work off of. Let me know what you think.

Thanks!!!
 


bklynman01 said:
The minimum radius I used is 22" for the passenger lead in.
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Most full length passenger cars don't even like 22" radius. The new Walthers are 24" minimum if one can believe what is advertised on the box. Do you already have some passenger equipment? Several companies made "shorty" cars with truck mounted couplers that could navigate the 18" radius curves.

3. For the coal line, the one track up is my priority. Depending on what model I find (or decide to scratch build), there may be two tracks that service the mine itself. I'm confident that I'll be able to fit in something that will look right.
Click to expand...
Two would definitely look better and like a mine that actually needs rail service. I had a whole layout where getting the coal down from the mine to the main line was the entire focal point. It was a big mine that had their own locomotive. It went down to the main line siding to get empty cars. Brought them up the steep grades in blocks. Worked them through the mine. Then returned them to the main siding for another railroad to pick up.

2. Originally, I wanted the coal mine and the passenger line to be separate. That's why I'm not set on the passenger station. I tried to put a double slip switch ...
Click to expand...
Yeah, double slips are generally only found in heavily railed cities and usually where several railroads are meeting (like St. Louis Union Station), so your right about them not looking right.
 
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Do you already have some passenger equipment?
Click to expand...
Yes, I have a few old passenger cars, but its only one train's worth (4 cars) and they are the shorties you refer to. They were given to me by an uncle who had a very nice collection of PRR equipment. The train is from the 1870s, so the look is a little different than everything else will have - maybe it will work...?
It was a big mine that had their own locomotive. It went down to the main line siding to get empty cars. Brought them up the steep grades in blocks. Worked them through the mine. Then returned them to the main siding for another railroad to pick up.
Click to expand...
I thought about getting some narrow gauge (maybe just N) to service a coal mine further up the mountain (top left of the layout as pictured). It would bring the coal down to the rail station at the top right where the railroad can pick up the 55 ton loads (already have the PRR 55 ton cars, enough for a full train). This also is not fully decided yet. I figure that adding some N-gauge track won't be too difficult as not too much support will be needed, and I can just work it into the scenery when I get there.

I am getting rid of the passenger station too. That will be left for later. I do think that the layout needs it at some point though, as railroads were the main form of travel in the 30s.

Thank you very much for the advice! Back to work on the design... I already have the outside loop laid, but that has very little impact on a redesign. I'll be sure to put up some new ideas.
 
Okay, this is after just a little bit of work. I'll probably sit and stare at this for at least a day. I took the advice and made the coal mine service line 2 tracks. The yellow line now stays level and comes out of a tunnel underneath the coal mine.

Any feedback is welcomed! Thanks in advance!

Phase 1 Passenger Station Layout r3.jpg
 
In general I think that looks better (more like a railroad). I don't think there needs to be two tracks all the way up to the mine, just two after the track gets there.

How long are the 55 ton hoppers? Are they 34', 40'? If that short they could go around 18" curves with no problem. That might give you some flexibility to make it a bit more interesting than just a single long continuous curve.

Below is the mine layout I mentioned before. I know it is long and skinny compared to yours (it is n-scale but would have been 4x16 in HO), but see how I wiggled the track going up to the mine so that it wasn't just straight track against a straight board edge. Maybe a curve-straight-curve sequence or something could be used on yours.
PINERIDG.jpg

Interesting (to me at least) side note. The shown layout was the third one built on the same board. I started the original Thanksgiving day 1974 (39 years ago). It was razed and then the 2nd layout had a main front yard (also very boring design) which then became the hidden staging tracks on this 3rd layout. This one was doodled on the back of a cocktail napkin while I was baby sitting the installation of computer software in Kansas City.
 
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Holy cow, that's awesome. Back to the drawing board...

I knew this place would be great! Glad I joined and put my layout up!
 
One thing that I would recommend to everyone who wants to design their own trackplan, is to get a copy of John Armstrong's, "Trackplanning for Realistic Operation".

Its available from Kalmbach publishing, the nice folks who bring you Model Railroader magazine. This is a must have for every model railroader. One of the Bibles, if you will.

It explains the when, where, hows and why of a great trackplan. The really nice thing is it applies to all scales and not just HO.

It is a must read!
 
Regarding slip switches (turnouts). First, I think double-slip switches are cool. But second, as Iron Horseman said, they are usually found in high-volume, highly-congested locations. Third, I had one for 16 years and ran 60-car trains through it. HOWEVER, it required tweaking often, and it increasingly got so that I "held my breath" when a train went through it (increasing number of derailments). That's when I took it out and replaced it with two back-to-back regular switches. I lost three railcars' capacity in my yard, but am I glad I did it? YES!

As an addendum, I had an Atlas 12.5 degree crossing diamond on a main line for about 15 years. It gave me almost no trouble until about the 15th year when the lead axle of the lead diesel loco would be heading through it and just take off on the alternate crossing route. After a lot of checking I discovered that the "frog" points (which were plastic) were very worn, and that in turn caused the flange of one of the wheels to diverge onto the cross route. Well, note-to-self, don't use 12.5 degree crossing diamonds any more. I'll admit though that some other manufacturers' 12.5 degree crossing diamonds may be all metal and work correctly for decades.

DougC
 


Doug,

This is an easy repair for the plastic diamonds or any plastic frog. Get some 24 hr expoxy, like JB Weld. Mix enough to fill in the frogs. When dry, at least 24 hours, file down the fill until level with the top of the rails. Take a 32teeth per inch hacksaw blade, doesn't need to be an expensive one, and cut new flangeways. The 32T blade will cut them at the NMRA flangeway width. Due to the hardness of the expoxy the frog points won't wear down for many, many years. If they do wear down again, just repeat the repair.

Given the prices of track nowadays, if a piece can be salvaged with a simple repair, do it and save the money.
 
One thing that I would recommend to everyone who wants to design their own trackplan, is to get a copy of John Armstrong's, "Trackplanning for Realistic Operation".
Click to expand...
CJ, after you said that, I remembered that I did buy a book like that. After digging it up, I have The Model Railroading Handbook Volume II. The book is a little old, but model railroading doesn't change, so I"m comfortable with it. I did some reading about the operation, and seem to meet some of the recommendations.

I did some more work on the layout. Here's what we have - Green is a main line, yellow has two purposes: main line and loading area for the mine, blue is for expansion to another section later on, and the red is the coal mine.

I am liking this more and more. Thank you everyone for the input!

r3 Layout.jpg
 
If the crossing wasn't custom to the location, why not just go out and buy a new one after 15 years?
 
I still recommend the Armstrong book. He was the guru of track planning and even though he's gone, no one's even come close to him with track planning. Get the book.
 
So, I've pretty much stuck with the latest design so far. I am thinking about adding a couple of storage tracks on the top of the green line. They would be hidden in a tunnel, and would provide some good space to store extra rolling stock. With the holiday, I get a couple of weeks vacation from work (called holiday shutdown) where I only need to burn 3 days to have a full two weeks off. That being said, I'm doing it! The only problem is that this provides me good time to get some house work done. I will be starting demolition of our main bathroom this week and do not plan to have any time for the railroad until after the new year. Knowing that this would bother me, I did some quick wiring of the outside loop last night and got the first locomotive rolling. This is the first time in almost 16 years that this engine has seen electricity! Powered up and turned like a champ! Since I was the only one in my house really excited about this, I figured I would share with you guys: http://youtu.be/Z1rEqmKHQ1I

You can bet I'll be back at this as soon as I have a place to (while keeping it PG...) poop and shower!

Happy holidays everyone!
 
Okay, I know this thread had gotten a little "derailed" before, and it has been a while since I posted, but I'm back to it. I had to take some time off to remodel our bathroom over the holiday break. Now that its done, I can afford to spend more time doing what I want! That being said, I have a new revision of the layout. I took the advice about the coal line heading up to the mine above the main lines. At first, I was not to enthusiastic about switching lines, but they have grown on me a little. I enjoy watching a train run around a loop, so this is my first stab at a small end-to-end section.

I'm thinking it needs a run around for the locomotive, but not really sure where to put it. Should there be two of them (top and bottom of mountain)? I know that double crossovers are not highly looked upon, but I'm a little tight on space. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks in advance!!

Phase 1 r4.jpg
Phase 1 r4 3D.jpg
 


I do like the idea of being able to sit in the center of the layout, but my room doesn't really allow. I also would rather be able to build full scenes instead of pieces of them. The coal mine at the top right corner of the layout can be full sized, not just the edge of the mountain and the one building. Thought about N-scale to get more into the smaller area, but decided to stick with HO scale, as I like the amount of detail that is achievable. N scale just seems too much like a toy for me (don't get me wrong, I appreciate N scale layouts, just not for me).

I plan to have a section in the center open for me to stand up inside, just haven't felt the need to figure that part out in SCARM. The top of the plywood is 49" off the ground. I already have the green outside loop laid down, so I'm working from there. Before I put down the inside yellow loop, I want to make sure I know where the coal line will be going - altitude and turnout locations could depend on it. The biggest problem I have is that I didn't join the forum until after I started construction. Now it is at a stand still because of feedback I received in this thread. I'm terribly thankful that I did this first, or I might have ended up with something much worse (see first post).

Anyhow, here is another stab at it. Engine run-around is at the bottom (where the control panel will be). What do you guys think?

View attachment 41437View attachment 41438
 
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