Model manufacturers prototype errors

[tootnkumin]

While researching the UP heritage fleet cars for the train I want to build (and as Walther's in their wisdom is discontinuing the cars they have produced once sold out and it sounds unlikely any more in the line will be produced in the near or foreseeable future), I wanted to see if any from the ones available or from the City train cars could be adapted.

To my surprise (although it shouldn't be) I found (apart from the "Willie James" that I knew was prototypically incorrect) that 2 of the dome cars are also not quite right.

The Walther's "Colorado Eagle" which should be an 80 seat car is in fact the "City of Portland" (which actually I'm pleased about as it's the only Dome diner with a full kitchen in the fleet and the model is so fitted, albeit without extractor roof vents. The window arrangements are totally different as well).

The other is the "City of San Francisco" which on the side with the door at the right hand end, the prototype lacks the window between the 2 "belly" windows and the door. The Walthers car has that window which does appear on 2 other fleet domes, the "Harriman" and "Walter Dean" and they are fitted out with a card room behind that window, as is the model.

So, the upshot of all this mind bending, goggle eyeing excercise is, I have ordered 3 x "C of SF" domes, 2 x "Columbine"(same floor plan as "Challenger"), 1 x "Colorado Eagle" nee "City of Portland", 3 x 44 seat "Katy Flyer"(all the coaches look to have the same floor plan), 1 x 12 B/RM smoothside sleeper(crew car), 3 x 4-4-2 "Imperial" sleepers ( I doubt Walthers will ever produce the sleepers that are actually in the fleet), 2 x ACF Baggage cars (ex C&NW City pool cars) and 1 x 48 seat Diner "City of Los Angeles".

I have 2 Rapido Cafe/bar/lounges I will press into service, 1 for the crew's benefit, the other for all the paying railfans I'll need to recompense this splurge.

All up, an 18 car train to be pulled by the D&RGW heritage SD70Ace and another or 2. Gonna need a big track with wide radiuses and maybe lots of heavy passengers (do they still make lead soldiers I wonder) to keep 'em on the track. What I really need is the "844" up front as well.

Alternatively (and unprototypically), I might at last be able to run my P2K ABBA set of all powered PA1/PB1 Alcos up front.

 

[Espeefan]

Prototypical toe stubbing is quite common, even with expensive brass models. I'll have to ask around a little but I'm wondfering it the Heritage cars aren't the same tooling as the earlier "City" cars with minor differences in detail. I'd have to wonder how many sets of Heritage cars they thought they might sell, and if it would justify new tooling or tooling modifications.

There have been hiccups in just about all of the Walthers name trains to some extent. The Super Chief had a 1938 Indian series 4-4-2 instead of the proper post war Regal in the original consist. We had to wait several years for the right car. The head end cars were also incorrect. The Empire Builder had some wrong head end cars too. Not too sure about the 20th Century or the City trains, or the Broadway but I'm sure there are some, even if they are minor. No problem though. Kit Bashers need projects!

As for your curves, if they are at least 24" you should have no trouble keeping the train on the rails. Make sure you oil the axles, and use heavy oil, like LaBelle 102. It's sticky and stays around longer than the light oils. At our club one member has a 22 car "City of Everywhere" he pulls with an A-B-B-B-B-A set of E units (that's right four B units...he's nuts!). It stays on the rails just fine without any added weight

 

[tootnkumin]

I found 1 City dome coach when hunting around online model shops (no name) which was the same car as the C of SF, so yes they have just used what was available. That's why I'm not confident that they'll do a special retooling for the heritage sleepers, because they have all been changed externally and internally quite extensively.

A 22 car, 6 loco lashup. Awesome!

 

[sd24b]

While researching the UP heritage fleet cars for the train I want to build (and as Walther's in their wisdom is discontinuing the cars they have produced once sold out and it sounds unlikely any more in the line will be produced in the near or foreseeable future), I wanted to see if any from the ones available or from the City train cars could be adapted.

To my surprise (although it shouldn't be) I found (apart from the "Willie James" that I knew was prototypically incorrect) that 2 of the dome cars are also not quite right.

The Walther's "Colorado Eagle" which should be an 80 seat car is in fact the "City of Portland" (which actually I'm pleased about as it's the only Dome diner with a full kitchen in the fleet and the model is so fitted, albeit without extractor roof vents. The window arrangements are totally different as well).

The other is the "City of San Francisco" which on the side with the door at the right hand end, the prototype lacks the window between the 2 "belly" windows and the door. The Walthers car has that window which does appear on 2 other fleet domes, the "Harriman" and "Walter Dean" and they are fitted out with a card room behind that window, as is the model.

So, the upshot of all this mind bending, goggle eyeing excercise is, I have ordered 3 x "C of SF" domes, 2 x "Columbine"(same floor plan as "Challenger"), 1 x "Colorado Eagle" nee "City of Portland", 3 x 44 seat "Katy Flyer"(all the coaches look to have the same floor plan), 1 x 12 B/RM smoothside sleeper(crew car), 3 x 4-4-2 "Imperial" sleepers ( I doubt Walthers will ever produce the sleepers that are actually in the fleet), 2 x ACF Baggage cars (ex C&NW City pool cars) and 1 x 48 seat Diner "City of Los Angeles".

I have 2 Rapido Cafe/bar/lounges I will press into service, 1 for the crew's benefit, the other for all the paying railfans I'll need to recompense this splurge.

All up, an 18 car train to be pulled by the D&RGW heritage SD70Ace and another or 2. Gonna need a big track with wide radiuses and maybe lots of heavy passengers (do they still make lead soldiers I wonder) to keep 'em on the track. What I really need is the "844" up front as well.

Alternatively (and unprototypically), I might at last be able to run my P2K ABBA set of all powered PA1/PB1 Alcos up front.

Some of the cars original cars are available, although not with the heritage fleet names. LOL I procrastinated too long and had to settle for the heriage dome lounge obs. AMB makes a wonderful cafe lounge, 2 types of baggage cars. My ABBB ( powered P2k) can handle it on the 2% grade without a problem. Phil

 

[Motley]

I model the UP city series also.

I have the Willie James and Colorado Eagle cars for my Cheyenne Frontier Days train that runs from Denver to Cheyenne.

I also have the D&RGW SD70Ace and UP 844 Steam locomotive.

I had no idea how prototypical they are, but I wasn't that concerned either.

 

[Hergy]

The City cars are essentially generic. Walthers used basic PS and ACF plans so a few of the cars are spot on if not modified by UP. These cars were made to order and/or heavily modified by the using railroad. I'm sorry to say that these are not $80 cars in terms of prototype fidelity. About all Walthers did was give us pre- installed hand grabs. Rapido cars, for example, have shades installed, much nicer diaphragms AND lighting is included. Also, they are loaded with underbody detail. Compared to the detail currently found on Athearn Genisis Locos, as an example, Walthers passenger cars are just "OK".

 

[tootnkumin]

To Motley,
Ooooh that looks nice. As you can see by some of my remarks, I wasn't particularly worried about correctness either (there aren't any Alco's in the fleet for instance)but it just seems a shame that when they actually did have 2 dome cars that were good representations of prototype, they got the names wrong. Poor research, after all if I can do it from "Downunder" you'd think they could get it right.

 

[tootnkumin]

The City cars are essentially generic. Walthers used basic PS and ACF plans so a few of the cars are spot on if not modified by UP. These cars were made to order and/or heavily modified by the using railroad. I'm sorry to say that these are not $80 cars in terms of prototype fidelity. About all Walthers did was give us pre- installed hand grabs. Rapido cars, for example, have shades installed, much nicer diaphragms AND lighting is included. Also, they are loaded with underbody detail. Compared to the detail currently found on Athearn Genisis Locos, as an example, Walthers passenger cars are just "OK".

I'm in full agreement about the lack of detail for the price, although my experience with Rapido has not been particularly satisfactory either.

 

[Espeefan]

Motely,

Nice train and I like your backdrops. No people? Not there yet? I use craft paint and do my interiors to get something besides that uniform tan, then add people. On the domes I mixed 50-50 Tamiya clear green and clear blue, and sprayed the inside of the dome windows to darken the tint. I think we've maybe talked before about passengers but I usually do 10-12 per car, except I do load up the domes. Prieser has a nice set of seated diners for the dome diner

On other stuff:

I'm not a heritage car expert but if they were that heavily modified from their original condition, then your only hope for 100% fidelity is brass. Then you'll pay $500.00+ per car. UP Heritage cars just aren't that big a market.

As to Rapido, they are coming along, but they lean heavily to Canadian prototypes, which are not my area of interest. Lots of underbody detail yes, but I don't care about that. Basic underbody detailing is fine unless you're modeling train wrecks!

 

[Hergy]

Alan, I like your idea about darkening the tint on the domes. Walthers tried but didn't quite get the effect. I know that the only way to get prototype fidelity is brass, but as you pointed out at $500 per car that's not a viable alternative. I was referring more to some of the finer detail parts not executed particularly well. Diaphragms come to mind. The Walthers version is extremely rudimentary, also some of the missing roof details such as vents and cable covers etc. But with all that, a string of 8 or 10 of these cars is still a beautiful sight.

As far as car modifications are concerned, the UP was constantly changing the car configurations. Windows were added or removed, roomettes converted to bedrooms and on and on. The UP car shops are located just across the river from where I live and some friends worked on the cars. These mods were made in many cases to keep up with the Jonses (Cal Zephyr) and to meet demands for more (or less) bedrooms or whatever to gain a competitive advantage.

I would love to see Walthers do one of the beautiful business cars that the UP still maintains. This would be the icing on the cake. I'm surprised that this type of car has not been offered.

 

[tootnkumin]

What got me interested in the Heritage cars was the fact that they could fit into 2 time frames and apart from someone like me who does like a bit of prototypical accuracy, but not to an extreme, there would be few in Aussie that would actually realise the difference. (we do have a exclusively UP club here).

If it hadn't been for the fact that Walthers had released (according to them) only the 48 seater diner which has a kitchen, I went looking for the possibility of a dome diner with kitchen and eventually found it, but they had wrongly named it.(an opportunity for more sales missed possibly)

If any of you have been in the house building game you will know what happens when a buyer finds a flaw in the finish when doing a takeover inspection, they then go looking for more (and usually find them).

Before I took the plunge and ordered more of the domes and 44 seat cars etc, I had both emailed and skyped Walthers sales dept to see if they were going to release other named cars in the future but the replies were that they had no knowledge of any intention to do so.

It doesn't look hopeful.

 

[Hergy]

Tootinkumin, here's a site that perhaps you are aware of, but if you are into any aspect of UP this is the goto place:

http://utahrails.net/pass/heritage-fleet-upp-numbers.php

Don Strack is a noted UP historian and has had a bunch of books and articles published. The link is for the Heritage fleet but you can snoop around the entire site from there. You'll notice that a number of the fleet have changed names more than once. The City of San Francisco was once a coach, now it's a dome lounge.

Lake Forest and Lake Bluff started life as coaches and now they are sleepers. The fleet is a fast moving target, indeed. Here's another site with pictures of the domes:

http://trainweb.org/web_lurker/UP/index.html

If you were confused before, this should put you even more so.

 

[tootnkumin]

Thanks for those 2 Hergy, I can see some more hours spent in front of the monitor.

Love those old publicity pics of the crews and how the travelling public were supposed to dress. And the furniture!!!!

 

[tootnkumin]

Bummer!! You've gone and upset me now Hergy. Didn't know there were any super domes in the fleet until I saw it in the pic (ex C&NW) and where I've ordered from had 2 listed for under $40, unfortunately the order's already been posted. Postage kills single item orders and I'm way past budget now. If only the inspection car on the end of that train was available as a model (even in it's also C&NW colours). Budget considerations would be out the door!

At least we now know where the real "Fox River" came from.

 

[Hergy]

Be careful what you wish for. That inspection car was modeled by Overland Models a while back (and UP colors). I saw one at Caboose Hobbies in Denver and if I recall correctly it was over $600. Beautiful car, but not at that price. Caboose has been my pusher of choice for 50+ years. We have vacationed in Colorado for many years plus I have kids that live there. Quite a sight to see several thousand pieces of brass in one spot.

The "Superdomes" were a staple on Milwaukee Road, UP's second partner bringing the Streamliners from Chicago to Omaha. These domes usually did not go west of Omaha but it did happen. Even though I live in Omaha, I didn't get to view many of the Streamliners as they hit here late at night.

If you want to have a Superdome in a later years' consist, pick up a Milwaukee Road dome. Consists in the waning years of passenger service had some very interesting makeups. (aka City of Everywhere etc.)

Dick

 

[tootnkumin]

Haha, thanks Dick, I needed a reality check. Actually I've never really liked the appearance of the superdomes, a bit bulbous so I've gone cold on that one. So it looks like the best thing to do is create, as City of everywhere's owner has done, is a personal tribute to the trains and not be too concerned with accuracy.

One of the members over on trainboard.com is doing a kitbash on a dinnerbell car (converting it into a "theatre car") http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?114656-H0-Scale-What-s-On-Your-Workbench/page42 Post # 416 by Flashwave.

Not a bad concept.

 

[HF1]

I'm in full agreement about the lack of detail for the price, although my experience with Rapido has not been particularly satisfactory either.

Nor have I...The Rapido cars are just as generic - if not more so -and most are based on Canadian Specification Builds, if I'm not mistaken. The other thing i do not like about the Rapido cars are that the plastic is translucent so if they're lighted, so are your car sides - too toy like for my tastes.
Walthers kept some of these cars 'generic' to appeal to more potential buyers -more sales -more profit.

I have the City cars and don't really have an issue with them not being 100% accurate - its the overall affect that is what is appealing to most modelers anyway.
I alos have the Overland Brass Business Train with several add-on Domes -those are the best for the modern train.

 

[spookyac47]

RE: Rapido Passenger Cars in PRR decor

. . . Rapido cars, for example, have shades installed, much nicer diaphragms AND lighting is included. Also, they are loaded with underbody detail. . . . .

When the HO scale Rapido passenger cars were released decorated for the Pennsylvania Railroad, I looked at them, briefly. None of the cars are even close to what they claim to represent for the PRR . . .

Don
Lower Arizona

 

[Hector Gonzales]

I model the UP city series also.

I think your backdrop needs work. The wrinkles are distracting to an otherwise Ok layout.

 

[diburning]

Every manufacturer that throws a modern paint scheme on a loco and doesn't retool them to have specific details such as ditch lights, SP light package, nose headlights, etc.