I've been missing...

[Janry]

I'd like some advice but first, I should probably re-introduce myself as I plan on being here more often. I orginally joined this forum about 2 1/2 years ago as I began working on my first layout.

Here is my original introduction:
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18695

As that post stated, I was working on a "wacky" version of the River Pass Layout (HO - 4'x8'). I got as far as having the track in place and wiring complete. I went with Digitrax Zephyr though I knew I didn't need it for that layout but because I knew that layout would only be a beginning and I was using it to learn about the hobby. I bought an inexpensive DCC Bachmann locomotive and 5 cars, something just to play with for the time.

About the time I was getting things rolling I was having some track and turnout issues and was getting frustrated and then my Mother had a long illness and my mother-in-law also had health issues. Then my employer had some changes. Long story, I covered up the layout and focused on real life.

Well, I retired at the end of September and now I've uncovered the layout. I fixed my track and turnout issues and have things running well. Well, at least in one direction. LOL

There are several things with this layout that I don't care for and don't plan to finish the scenery. I don't like the turnouts I used (Atlas). I don't like the limited operating capabilities. I don't like that the train is hidden in tunnels half the time.

What I'd like is a layout where I can have at least two trains running pretty much unattended if I desire. I'm not really into operations and really only want to have a few switches to play with when I want to.

The room I plan to construct my layout in was once a single car garage to a 70 year-old house, and the garage has been enclosed so that it part of the basement.

Here is the lay of the land, so to speak:

As you can see for this image, I've installed XTrackCAD and I've been playing around with layout possibilities.

The area roughly forming an "L" that I've labled "benchwork" is what my wife and I have agreed upon. More of the room cannot be used as on the right side is an exterior door that is the only external passage from the basement, and the area at the bottom of the image is a stone wall and passageway to the rest of the basement.

My vision of my layout is inspired by an area of my hometown called "The Gulch". Inspired is the word I use as I do not plan a model the area. It just serves as my inspiration. I'd like the primary focus of my layout to be late steam/early diesel where trains ran close by and between urban industrial areas. Then, I like to have a modern CSX line encircling the main area.

I've drawn up some rough layouts and to me, my biggest issue is with loops at either end. I can manage fine on the right end where I have a 4'x4' area were I can have a 22" radius loop. On the other end, I'm rather limited as my benchwork can only be 30" wide.

Though, I have to take my glasses off to even work with HO trains and scenery, I'm considering N scale just so I can have longer scale runs and ample room for loops and more tracks.

So I'd like ideas as to the scale and layout possibilites. I'd really like HO but talk me out of it if you think N would be much better for what I want to do.
Sorry for the long post.

 

[scroggin]

If you want to do continous running the width avaliable to turn the track around at the bottom is far too narrow for HO .By the time you allow clearance outside the track you would be down to a 13.5" radius. Some HO scale Steam Loco's will struggle With 22" but many can cope. 30-36" radius really is best.
The realistic choices are;
-forget about continous running and have an out-and-back design
-Go for N scale
- find a larger area

 

[Janry]

I've revised my thinking a bit and here is my latest thought using the same room for the layout:

This is a 5' x 16' rectangle. I know this exceeds the reach as I don't have access to the left and top but with this layout, I'd build the benchwork on good quality 4" casters and would roll the layout into the "restricted" zone at the bottom of the layout and more to the right. In fact, it could encroach on the restricted zone at most times. Only when wider access to the basement is needed would it be rolled back to the tight confines shown above.

My current 4' x 8' layout is built on a solid table top but with folding legs and casters mounted to the legs. I've rolled it around quite a bit without problems. However, this proposed layout is double the length and 25% wider. I'm thinking the benchwork would have 10 legs. I'm planning to make the legs from 2' x 4' studs with crossbracing and joists in the tabletop every 2'.

Do any of you have experience with a layout of this size on casters?

Thoughts in general or about my track layout will be appreciated.

 

[John P]

What I'm seeing there is no room for a loop or for turnbacks, which I think would make for dull operation. Would you consider using temporary trackage to turn the entire perimeter of the space into a loop? I'm thinking of something that wouldn't be scenicked, which would be rolled or swung or somehow moved into place for operation, then shoved out of the way between sessions. Maybe you could even have a rolling staging yard which would provide storage for many of your trains.

 

[waltr]

Where are the door ways to that room?

I'm thinking that a folded 'dogbone' layout would fit and not block a doorway so no 'duck under' is needed. This would allow continous running, loop, without looking like a train going round in circles.

 

[Janry]

Where are the door ways to that room?

I'm thinking that a folded 'dogbone' layout would fit and not block a doorway so no 'duck under' is needed. This would allow continous running, loop, without looking like a train going round in circles.

I have modified the original image to show the doorway location (see first post).

My original concept was a dogbone or modifed dogbone but since I desire to have two trains running unattended at the same time, I'm not able to do it from what I can determine.

 

[Janry]

What I'm seeing there is no room for a loop or for turnbacks, which I think would make for dull operation. Would you consider using temporary trackage to turn the entire perimeter of the space into a loop? I'm thinking of something that wouldn't be scenicked, which would be rolled or swung or somehow moved into place for operation, then shoved out of the way between sessions. Maybe you could even have a rolling staging yard which would provide storage for many of your trains.

I understand what you are saying but that probably is too advanced for me. Another thing is we consider the exit from the basement an emergency exit from the kitchen as there isn't another way out from there should there be a fire in the main living area. As such, we'd want to keep that area clear as we may be trying to exit in darkness. Pushing a layout on casters out of the way would be one thing but trying to deal with what you are mentioning, might be a bit much.

 

[waltr]

That door at the bottom is an issue. What I see is to have the layout not go all the way to that wall but leave a few feet next to that door.
This would look like the changes I made to your diagram showing where to loops are at the ends.

 

[Janry]

Thanks Waltr. That is much better than anything I came up with using a modified dogbone concept. Here it is in XTrackCad with 22" radius loops at each end.

I could possibly cheat a bit and have the benchwork on each loop extend down another foot to give a little extra though it would make the reach a bit tougher. However, not shown is the fact the room actually extends another 2 foot to the right (to 19'). I left that off as that 2' is reserved to be able to walk to that side to do layout work.

The biggest issue though is I can't have two trains running continuously without an operator as there is room for only 1 loop on each end so the trains would have to share them. Unless I installed occupancy detection and used computer control, I guess. And guessing is what I'm doing as I'm a beginner.

 

[waltr]

It could be possible to get two dog bone loops on that space. You may may need to elevate one loop so they have some overlap.

Keep searching the web for layout plans and trying different track plans with XTrackCadd.

2 reserved feet on the right is a good idea since reaching the back side of the loops will be a stretch. That was part of my reason to move the lower-left loop away from the wall.

Another idea is a twice around dog-bone. This would be basically like the John Allen's G&D layout but with the center section stretched around the walls.
http://www.gdlines.com/Galleries.html
Do you see how this can be stretched to fit your space?

This could have enough track length to run two trains with careful speed adjustment.
Or take some of these ideas for two loops.

 

[scroggin]

you could go for two tracks at different heights one tunneled under the other in the loops

 

[Janry]

It could be possible to get two dog bone loops on that space. You may may need to elevate one loop so they have some overlap.

you could go for two tracks at different heights one tunneled under the other in the loops

You are both right. I've toyed with that thought and may well use it but ideally I'd like to have them on the same level so I can switch the trains between tracks. I know. I want too much. But, I want to consider all possibilities and I know I've not seen near as much as some of you more seasoned veterans of the hobby.

It's going to be awhile before I begin putting hammer to nail as I still have some early retirement "honey do's" to get out of the way. Just doing my dreaming well in advance so please give me any more thoughts.

 

[Janry]

I think I might have come up with something that I can make work.

Thoughts?

 

[Janry]

I've sadly realized two things: 1) I cheated on the 30" reach rule some in the above layout. I knew it but decided they were small distances and I could manage. 2) I measured my own reach by doing some practical things and realize 24" is about my maximum to be comfortable for much at all. In fact, any kind of track soldering or precision work over 24" would be a problem and I often pull muscles in my lower back.

Therefore, I'm probably going to scrap plans for now of a HO layout in that room. I'm going to go puts hands on some N scale equipment at a LHS in the near future and decide if I want to go down that avenue.

 

[Will landers]

I got tired of reaching that's why my benchwork is around the walls.if u have room go for that at 2 feet 3 feet widths

 

[otiscnj]

How about a yard or branch line along the 11' wall, next to the basement door? Are you trying to keep a 4' or 5' aisle between the two doors? A 4' aisle is pretty good.

 

[TrinityJayOne]

With that amount of space I would be seriously considering N scale. The latest design you've posted is quite small for a HO layout if your main interest is "watching 'em roll" as we call it. Consider that a modern diesel and ten 40' boxcars is about 5.5' long, or over a third the length of your table. The first L-shape design you have will make for the longest runs, but as mentioned those radii just aren't happening in HO. Even in N the 13.5" radii that Scroggin mentioned is getting tight. There's a gentleman's agreement among the manufacturers that 9.75" is the minimum working radius, but 11" is more commonly seen by modelers as the lowest you want to go. At this point you can still run pretty much everything, but long carriages look pretty bad. As an example, here's the California Zephyr (85' cars) rounding an 11" curve.

Of course this may not apply to you, say if you only intend to run 4-axle diesels and 40' boxcars, which still look great on 11" turns.

Definitely visit your LHS and get hands on with some N scale stuff as you said. I think many see the difficult parts as- A. putting stuff on the tracks, and B. doing wiring (especially decoders). Rerailing locos and cars becomes 2nd nature but you can always cheat with a simple plastic ramp, which tonnes of manufacturers sell for next to nothing. Soldering work can be fiddly, but I don't think this aspect is much better in HO and it generally doesn't even apply unless you want to do your own custom installs, such as additional loco lights or adding sound.

 

[trailrider]

As far as your reach is concerned, how high is the level of your planned layout? Mine is at 32-36" above floor level. There are a couple of places that are more than 24" in reach, but with a stepstool, they can be gotten at. These heights are great for seated or standing operation, and little kids can see everything as well.

As far as radius is concerned, since you are essentially starting from scratch, going to N scale will give you a lot more railroad for the space. As I have over 55 years of HO equipment, and the eyes and hands aren't what they used to be, I opted to fit my latest layout into a 13' 7" x 14' 0" room, with my mainline curves using mostly 20"R Shinohara sectional track. I run passenger trains that are a mix of 72-75' cars, with an occasional 85' in between several of the shorties. These are mostly older Athearn, but also the ConCor 72' streamline and branchline cars, as well. Although I do use B-B diesels, I also have a couple of P2K A-1-A E units that handle 18" radius okay. My steamers will all handle 18" radius as well (in some cases by a bit of "slight-of-hand" using blind drivers on the interior wheelsets...even on some kitbashed Mantua 2-10-2's, 2-10-4's, and a 4-8-4 and 4-8-2).

I suppose, if I had had the option, I might have considered N scale...

 

[otiscnj]

Although it seems like a large space, the door configurations and need for a passage way between them is problematic. N-scale might be a viable option, if you can deal with the smaller size. If you don't want to do continuous running, maybe an HO switching layout...

 

[Janry]

Here is another HO possibility I've come up with and I would like your thoughts.

Track plans shown are not anywhere near final. Just put in to show two loops are possible with plenty of sidings, etc.

As you can see, I'm thinking of a 2' liftout or duckunder to get to the area where I can do work on the far side of things. All the benchwork is 2' wide except the against the back wall. It is only 16" wide. The work area within the benchwork is 2' wide. Only small areas in the two distant corners are not within a 24" reach, and they are only about 28" out. I can deal with them.

The loop you see extending from the chimney foundation is to show a 40" area that needs to be kept clear for a passageway.