Insulfrog question

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DairyStateDad

Mumbling in the corner
So on another thread there is this comment about the Insulfrog:

As long as you don't have locos long enough to cause a short then yeah, the stock Peco turnouts should do fine with the frog being insulated. Sorry for my part in veering wildly off course.

So how long is too long?

From the DairyStatePhone



From the DairyStatePhone
 
Long enough to have the front trucks passing the end of the frog while the rear trucks are still on the main rails. It will vary according to the length of the turnout.
 
And (not to sound too dense) in this case we're referring specifically to trucks that are picking up power, correct?
 


I have never had any issues with shorting locos on my Peco Insulfrogs (I have 30 of them), no matter how long the wheelbase, long, short, they all work fine. No need to worry.
 
Oh, good grief. I misread the insulfrog part. There's not ever a problem with insulfrogs. My original comment was about electrofrogs being shorted out by long wheel-base locos. The problem does NOT apply to insulfrogs. The line about the frog being insulated was about the frog portion of an electrofrog.
 
Well, and it's probably my bad, because I may have gotten the two confused with each other when I read your original post that I quoted in my question at the top of this thread. All I know is I have been encouraged to get the Insulfrog turnouts. And truthfully, the whole wiring thing just about gives me hives. :eek:

From the DairyStatePhone
 
Well, and it's probably my bad, because I may have gotten the two confused with each other when I read your original post that I quoted in my question at the top of this thread. All I know is I have been encouraged to get the Insulfrog turnouts. And truthfully, the whole wiring thing just about gives me hives. :eek:

From the DairyStatePhone

It's not even so much that it gives me hives (though I do understand that), but if I want to make sure an electrofrog will accommodate my DD40 (for example) then I have to do all the modifications and wire up switches to each and every turnout and then replace the switches if and when they go bad. I've had no problems at all with my insulfrogs other than taking a file to them for all of 10 seconds and they don't require anything else other than being hooked up. No insulators, no switches, no special wiring. I know people say the electrofrogs WORK better, but again...I've had zero problem with any locomotive making it through the insulfrogs, including a little 90-ton switcher.
 
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the issue possible on insulfrogs is treads wide enough to touch the other rail if the frog is not fully insulated design, some have short rails going into it. Electrofrogs long wheelbase engines may touch the POINTS shorting as the points carry the rail current.
 
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I have dozens of Code 83 Streamline Insulfrog turnouts, some new, some retrieved from my second layout which I dismantled in 2012 (yikes, that long ago already?!?!?). I have never experienced shorting at the frogs, but I fully understand that sufficiently wide tire treads on even engine truck axles on a steamer, for example, could possibly bridge the two frog rails after they 'wye' away from the frog point AFTER the two tiny black plastic insulators. Never happened in my case, but... However, with "curved" turnouts and longer steamers that have a blind driver set to get around scale curves, you might find it a problem. I purchased several #7-5 curved Walthers/Shinohara turnouts seven years ago and found that some steamers shorted a that very point, where the frog rails diverged after the two little spacers. It was almost always only on the wider 'through' route where the blind driver, running inside the curve of the outer frog rail, swiped over the surface of the inner curved frog rail and caused a short.

I effected two remedies, with the preferred being using a cut-off disk and severing the inner frog rail just a bit further out from the plastic insulator. The idea is to sever it with two sets of spikehead details supporting the segment you isolate, not just one...or it'll move. The second method is widely used: use clear fingernail polish and paint the rails for about 3/8" outward down the divergence after the insulators. This will have to be repeated once every few months.
 


The part that shorts with the wheel treads is the area near the frog as seen here. A little filing fixes it. This happens with both electro and insulfrog.
turnout.png
 
The part that shorts with the wheel treads is the area near the frog as seen here. A little filing fixes it. This happens with both electro and insulfrog.

The problem area is a tiny bit different on the insulfrog. The two frog rails are so close together that wheels can bridge the gap and short them. I've had the issue with my N-scale Peco turnouts, but it's a really quick and easy fix.
 

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The problem area is a tiny bit different on the insulfrog. The two frog rails are so close together that wheels can bridge the gap and short them. I've had the issue with my N-scale Peco turnouts, but it's a really quick and easy fix.

Hey Mike, thanks for posting the pic for reference, very handy!
 
It's actually Atlas that has the issue at the location of the pic I posted. I never had the issue at home or at the club with the Peco's
 
Long enough to have the front trucks passing the end of the frog while the rear trucks are still on the main rails. It will vary according to the length of the turnout.

... if I want to make sure an electrofrog will accommodate my DD40 (for example) then I have to do all the modifications and wire up switches to each and every turnout and then replace the switches if and when they go bad...

I have never heard of this "long wheel base loco causing a short on electrofrogs" problem before. I have heard of the "wheel backs against the points" short that Suzie mentions, though I have never experienced it, at least not on Peco turnouts. My DD40 runs through my unmodified Peco Electrofrogs just fine.
 
If Pecos are power-routing, the unused point rail should be dead when it is not against its stock rail...I believe. This would/should explain Robert's experience. I know the Code 83 Insulfrog Pecos that I use are also power-routing, and I never...ever..get shorts anywhere along the backs of the open point rails.
 




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