I need help making a relay operated two train O gauge layout

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impalaman

New Member
Hello everybody! I'm a first time relay operated layout maker and don't know what type of relay to use, or what type of track detection to use. I will be using O gauge. It will be a re-creation of the 1952 Lionel D-63 dealer display. I have the wiring diagram and manual coming but it won't tell me the relays to use. The relays don't need to be correct original. Can anybody offer some advice?
Also, if anyone is interested in a copy of the wiring for the D-63, I can post it here. Thanks Dan.
 


impalaman said:
This is a video of the actual Lionel dealer set in action.
Click to expand...
Pretty cool dealer layout, huh? In addition to seeing articles on this particular layout in past, I also happened to have watched this video just a few days ago while perusing some other videos.

In putting my crusty brain to work and suffering the corresponding pain, I got to thinking............. I don't know why one couldn't skip the relays and just use the good ol' magic 'insulated rail' trick that 3-rail track is so well known for (at least amongst the seasoned O-gauge crowd).

Picture this: Train #1 is sitting at the station, with the loco stopped on a section of straight track that has BOTH outer rails insulated. The center rail is powered of course, but since BOTH outer rails are insulated, the loco has no electrical power, and can't go.

Next, as Train #2 orbits the layout, it crosses over the 90 degree crossing the first time, continues around the figure "8", and crosses again the second time. The second time it crosses, there is one insulated outer rail in a section of track. From that insulated outer rail, run a jumper wire to one of the insulated rails where Train #1 is currently sitting. Also, run a second jumper wire to the anti-derail on that last turnout before entering the station.

So, as Train #2 contacts that one insulated rail by the crossing, power is supplied to Train #1 at the station and it takes off. The last turnout is also thrown for Train #2 to come into the station track, where it will stop in place of Train #1. And then the pattern keeps repeating itself.

If you watch the video closely, that's pretty much what's happening. They are probably also using insulated rails to activate the relays. However, in one spot, I see train #2 stopping very briefly where Train #1 hasn't quite completed going through that last turnout as it rolls into the station. Might have been a collision safety feature enacted by another relay somehow or other. In order for my idea to work, you may have to adjust where the one insulated rail is placed near the 90 degree crossing, in order to give the incoming station-bound train a little more time to clear the turnout.

If I were building this layout, I would forget the relays and experiment strictly with the insulated rail idea. But that's just me, I like to keep things as simple as possible when it comes to electrical wiring. No sense making it more complicated than it has to be.

Good luck whichever method you decide upon. Although I understand how relays work, I have no experience with them and can't give any advice on which ones to buy for a project like this. Maybe someone that does know could jump in with some recommendations. :)👍
 
Mixed Freight said:
Pretty cool dealer layout, huh? In addition to seeing articles on this particular layout in past, I also happened to have watched this video just a few days ago while perusing some other videos.

In putting my crusty brain to work and suffering the corresponding pain, I got to thinking............. I don't know why one couldn't skip the relays and just use the good ol' magic 'insulated rail' trick that 3-rail track is so well known for (at least amongst the seasoned O-gauge crowd).

Picture this: Train #1 is sitting at the station, with the loco stopped on a section of straight track that has BOTH outer rails insulated. The center rail is powered of course, but since BOTH outer rails are insulated, the loco has no electrical power, and can't go.

Next, as Train #2 orbits the layout, it crosses over the 90 degree crossing the first time, continues around the figure "8", and crosses again the second time. The second time it crosses, there is one insulated outer rail in a section of track. From that insulated outer rail, run a jumper wire to one of the insulated rails where Train #1 is currently sitting. Also, run a second jumper wire to the anti-derail on that last turnout before entering the station.

So, as Train #2 contacts that one insulated rail by the crossing, power is supplied to Train #1 at the station and it takes off. The last turnout is also thrown for Train #2 to come into the station track, where it will stop in place of Train #1. And then the pattern keeps repeating itself.

If you watch the video closely, that's pretty much what's happening. They are probably also using insulated rails to activate the relays. However, in one spot, I see train #2 stopping very briefly where Train #1 hasn't quite completed going through that last turnout as it rolls into the station. Might have been a collision safety feature enacted by another relay somehow or other. In order for my idea to work, you may have to adjust where the one insulated rail is placed near the 90 degree crossing, in order to give the incoming station-bound train a little more time to clear the turnout.

If I were building this layout, I would forget the relays and experiment strictly with the insulated rail idea. But that's just me, I like to keep things as simple as possible when it comes to electrical wiring. No sense making it more complicated than it has to be.

Good luck whichever method you decide upon. Although I understand how relays work, I have no experience with them and can't give any advice on which ones to buy for a project like this. Maybe someone that does know could jump in with some recommendations. :)👍
Click to expand...
Thank you very much! I'm going with your insulated rail idea. I have other layouts in mind to try this method on too. One is a trestled layout. I'm planning to use a ZW or other 4-output transformer to power it and add track blocks for uphill, down grade, and level track. Then set each throttle voltage accordingly. The fourth throttle can power the 022's. Thanks again for the tip on throwing a switch as the train approaches using an insulated track. How about this idea; add a master switch to go back and forth from automatic train operation and conventional running. Add another switch to cancel the automatic switch control too.
 
impalaman said:
Thank you very much! I'm going with your insulated rail idea. I have other layouts in mind to try this method on too. One is a trestled layout. I'm planning to use a ZW or other 4-output transformer to power it and add track blocks for uphill, down grade, and level track. Then set each throttle voltage accordingly. The fourth throttle can power the 022's. Thanks again for the tip on throwing a switch as the train approaches using an insulated track. How about this idea; add a master switch to go back and forth from automatic train operation and conventional running. Add another switch to cancel the automatic switch control too.
Click to expand...
Glad you like my ideas. I THINK they will work (whenever I try to think, it hurts, ya' know!🤪). In addition, you may or may not need to use the insulated rail idea for other turnouts on the layout, I didn't take time to study the route for them in the video.

Come to think of it, a master switch for changing between automatic and conventional running should be easily doable. And also cancelling the automatic turnout control should also work. I believe nothing more than plain old SPST 'on-off' switches would do the job.
 
If you are going to have elevated track you should go with a long incline. The trestle dimensions are steep and you will quickly be able to assess your engines that are capable of running.

The master switch can override auto switching and insulated rail usage. If you have insulated blocks regulated with a separate transformer, you will have to reroute the power from just one. That sounds like fun.

That is a nice video and is a good example how switches can interact, using the anti-derailing feature (which uses an isolated rail) .
 
Another item pops into mind, if you are into auto control, with or without relays, you need to know how to stop the engine and restart once you are into a sequence. All sorts of things could happen to alter the sequence so that it may not continue. For example, relays may reset, or if the engine is removed, where is it safe to place back? Keep you finger close to the brake!
 
Mixed Freight said:
In addition, you may or may not need to use the insulated rail idea for other turnouts on the layout, I didn't take time to study the route for them in the video.
Click to expand...
Yes, there are two places the turnouts will have to be activated to take the desired route. The one on the far right for the train to go into the diverging track, and the other on the far left to make the train go straight back into the station.
 
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