Smudge617
Well-Known Member
I visited St Petersburg may years ago, one of the seven wonder's in my book, an amazing city, I spent 3 weeks there and didn't see half of the City.
History of All Kinds
- Thread starter Bruette
- Start date
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First, let me say that the previous administration did NOT curtain its commitment to NATO, but simply insisted that the other members pay their fair share of NATO expenses, which resulted in increased economic support by the other members. As far as the assumption that "solving the dispute in a day" implies that it would result in compromises by Ukraine is concerned, it may be that what is meant by the statement is that Putin might be "encouraged" to "walk back the cat" on his invasion of Ukraine (by what persuasion I don't pretend to know, but the forceful personality of the former president can be significant). It is interesting to note that N. Korea's Kim stopped testing of missiles until the present administration took office.
So far as the Battle of Midway is concerned, there were numerous factors that contributed to the outcome. The breaking of the JN-25 codes by Cdr. Rochefort's intel unit, allowed the U.S. Pacific Fleet to initiate plans for the defense of Midway Island. The magnificent efforts at repairing the carrier Yorktown, allowed us to have three carriers available instead of two, an increase in aircraft of a third. OTOH, the lack of coordination of the various attacking aircraft units resulted in terrible losses, especially among the torpedo bombers (Torpedo 8 lost all aircraft and all but 1 pilot, and Torpedo 6 lost most of their aircraft and aircrews, with zero results in hitting the Japanese carriers). The attacks on the Japanese fleet by B-17's were totally ineffective...hard to hit maneuvering ships from 20,000 ft. The one thing that made the difference that allowed us to sink Akagi, Kaga and Soryu was the fact that the sacrifice of the torpeckers sucked the Japanese combat air patrol (CAP) down to water level, allowing the dive bombers to score the hits that devastated the Japanese carrier force. (Hiryu was later sunk similarly.
As far as what helped dramatically was the way Yamamoto split up his forces...a failing that also saved our bacon in other battles. If you want a great analysis from the Japanese point of view, read "Midway" by Fmr Capt. Mitsuo Fuchida, INJ, and Fmr Cdr Masatake Okumiya, IJN. So maybe it was a combination of luck and decisions, good and bad...luck, if you want to call it that...that made the difference.
I yield the soapbox.
Allow me to elaborate on this, one of my favorite parts of history
Station Hypo also known as Fleet Radio Unit Pacific (FRUPAC)
LCDR Wilfred J. Holmes at Hypo identified the Japanese code for Midway, "AF" by radioing an unencrypted false report of a freshwater shortage on Midway. Resulting in an encrypted Japanese response "AF was reporting water troubles"; AF had to be Midway
I won't discuss this or the previous administrations. History is acceptable on this forum, but I don't want to cross over into politics. Hopefully, twenty years from now we can discuss that as it will no longer be recent history.
Thanks again, I look forward to hearing more from you when and if you have time.
You talk about what smart guys they are, and about how you get along so well, etc.
Outsiders might look at that and draw entirely the wrong conclusions. Or even want to draw the wrong conclusions....
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Books: I recommend "Shattered Sword": https://www.amazon.com/Shattered-Sword-Untold-Battle-Midway/dp/1574889249
It's so often easy to think of swarms of aircraft during a big battle, but they only rarely are. VT-6 attacks and its attack is thwarted (most shot down), then VT-8 attacks (all shot down, one survivor), then, finally, the SBDs, which actually were something of a swarm. Each built upon the next.
I have the idea that when McClusky and his guys arrived on top, the carrier fighter CAP was pretty thin in numbers anyway. Supposed to be twenty eight in the CAP for all four ships combined, but I think there might have been less than ten still up when it mattered most.
She took me to McDonalds for my first visit, in a taxi. She had polo when she was a young girl. She struggled to walk, but she could walk.
There were no tables inside. We sat on the bench that was built into the side wall.
It looked like this.;
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Smudge617
Well-Known Member
I think that's maybe they remember life under previous regimes and what that cost them, but it's like today, most kids don't know what life was like 20 years ago, good example, give them and old telephone, you know the one's, dial in front that you always got you finger stuck in, absolutely clueless how to use one.
Smudge617
Well-Known Member
Yes this is also an important, although largely forgotten, part of the Dunkirk story.
trailrider
Well-Known Member
I was under the impression this was a model railroad forum... But, since several interesting historical subjects have been brought up, and I am an very interested in history and current events, I will add my two cents.
First, let me say that the previous administration did NOT curtain its commitment to NATO, but simply insisted that the other members pay their fair share of NATO expenses, which resulted in increased economic support by the other members. As far as the assumption that "solving the dispute in a day" implies that it would result in compromises by Ukraine is concerned, it may be that what is meant by the statement is that Putin might be "encouraged" to "walk back the cat" on his invasion of Ukraine (by what persuasion I don't pretend to know, but the forceful personality of the former president can be significant). It is interesting to note that N. Korea's Kim stopped testing of missiles until the present administration took office.
So far as the Battle of Midway is concerned, there were numerous factors that contributed to the outcome. The breaking of the JN-25 codes by Cdr. Rochefort's intel unit, allowed the U.S. Pacific Fleet to initiate plans for the defense of Midway Island. The magnificent efforts at repairing the carrier Yorktown, allowed us to have three carriers available instead of two, an increase in aircraft of a third. OTOH, the lack of coordination of the various attacking aircraft units resulted in terrible losses, especially among the torpedo bombers (Torpedo 8 lost all aircraft and all but 1 pilot, and Torpedo 6 lost most of their aircraft and aircrews, with zero results in hitting the Japanese carriers). The attacks on the Japanese fleet by B-17's were totally ineffective...hard to hit maneuvering ships from 20,000 ft. The one thing that made the difference that allowed us to sink Akagi, Kaga and Soryu was the fact that the sacrifice of the torpeckers sucked the Japanese combat air patrol (CAP) down to water level, allowing the dive bombers to score the hits that devastated the Japanese carrier force. (Hiryu was later sunk similarly.
As far as what helped dramatically was the way Yamamoto split up his forces...a failing that also saved our bacon in other battles. If you want a great analysis from the Japanese point of view, read "Midway" by Fmr Capt. Mitsuo Fuchida, INJ, and Fmr Cdr Masatake Okumiya, IJN. So maybe it was a combination of luck and decisions, good and bad...luck, if you want to call it that...that made the difference.
I yield the soapbox.
Bruette
Well-Known Member
You are correct sir! An early pivotal moment in the battle for Midway. One of many pivotal moments as you go on to further explain. Thank you for your post, I enjoyed it!
Allow me to elaborate on this, one of my favorite parts of history
Station Hypo also known as Fleet Radio Unit Pacific (FRUPAC)
LCDR Wilfred J. Holmes at Hypo identified the Japanese code for Midway, "AF" by radioing an unencrypted false report of a freshwater shortage on Midway. Resulting in an encrypted Japanese response "AF was reporting water troubles"; AF had to be Midway
I won't discuss this or the previous administrations. History is acceptable on this forum, but I don't want to cross over into politics. Hopefully, twenty years from now we can discuss that as it will no longer be recent history.
Thanks again, I look forward to hearing more from you when and if you have time.
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migalyto
Well-Known Member
Chris, have you ever seen the movie Midway. Not the recent one. The Charlton Heston one from like 1976? If not its a great one! They cover pretty well how they cracked the Japanese code.
Smudge617
Well-Known Member
I think so, I used to be a big WWII movie fan at one time.
trailrider
Well-Known Member
Anyone recall who Ensign George Gay was and his claim to fame, and what happened to him after WWII?
Smudge617
Well-Known Member
Wasn't he the guy who survived a torpedo attack somewhere near Midway or the Pacific, I vaguely remember it was something like that.
trailrider
Well-Known Member
Correct! He was the only surviving member of VT-8, Torpedo 8. Surviving the crash landing of his TBF Avenger, he spent the next two days floating and hiding under a seat cushion, lest the Japanese strafe him in the water. He watched the attack on the Akagi by the SBD dive bombers that mortally crippled the carrier. After the Japanese planes and ships left, he was able to inflate his life raft until picked up by a PBY. After the war he became a pilot for American Airlines. He passed away a few years ago.
Snowman
Well-Known Member
Some of you will know that John Ford (four Oscars for Best Director) was sent to Midway by the US Navy prior to the battle and found himself filming the actual battle (along with two other cameramen). Some of that footage made its way into his documentary "The Battle of Midway," which won him a fifth Oscar for Best Documentary:
Less well known was the short, private film he put together for the families of the men of Torpedo Eight. There were supposedly fifty copies, and were given only to those families.
That I knew. What I didn't know until all that long ago, was that one of those fifty copies was found in one families archives and was subsequently released to the general public. You can see it here:
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IMO the recent movie, "Midway" (2019--Roland Emmerich) is by far the most accurate, including such improbable scenes as the sequence where Bruno Gaido jumps into the back of a parked SBD Dauntless and shoots down a diving/suiciding Japanese bomber. Pure over-the-top Hollywood stuff, right? Except that it was quite true and happened pretty much the way they filmed it, including the fact that Adm. Bull Halsey watched the whole thing from up on the Island.
Gaido was also one of three fliers executed (by drowning) after being captured by the Japanese.
I have to say that when I found out Woody Harrelson was cast as Adm. Chester Nimitz for Emmerich's film my hopes dimmed...but I was wrong. He did a great job, as did so many of the rest. If I had to recommend only one movie version, it would be this one. Little bits of Hollywood, and a lot of little bits which LOOK like pure Hollywood, but which were quite real after all.
Less well known was the short, private film he put together for the families of the men of Torpedo Eight. There were supposedly fifty copies, and were given only to those families.
That I knew. What I didn't know until all that long ago, was that one of those fifty copies was found in one families archives and was subsequently released to the general public. You can see it here:
------------
IMO the recent movie, "Midway" (2019--Roland Emmerich) is by far the most accurate, including such improbable scenes as the sequence where Bruno Gaido jumps into the back of a parked SBD Dauntless and shoots down a diving/suiciding Japanese bomber. Pure over-the-top Hollywood stuff, right? Except that it was quite true and happened pretty much the way they filmed it, including the fact that Adm. Bull Halsey watched the whole thing from up on the Island.
Gaido was also one of three fliers executed (by drowning) after being captured by the Japanese.
I have to say that when I found out Woody Harrelson was cast as Adm. Chester Nimitz for Emmerich's film my hopes dimmed...but I was wrong. He did a great job, as did so many of the rest. If I had to recommend only one movie version, it would be this one. Little bits of Hollywood, and a lot of little bits which LOOK like pure Hollywood, but which were quite real after all.
Snowman
Well-Known Member
You pretty much nailed it, and I agree with your analysis too of "recent events and personalities." To which I'll add only one small thought: When you want to make a deal, part of the "art" of making that deal is to start by pampering your potential opponents. You butter them up, first, then fry them up later if need be.
You talk about what smart guys they are, and about how you get along so well, etc.Outsiders might look at that and draw entirely the wrong conclusions. Or even want to draw the wrong conclusions....
------
Books: I recommend "Shattered Sword": https://www.amazon.com/Shattered-Sword-Untold-Battle-Midway/dp/1574889249
It's so often easy to think of swarms of aircraft during a big battle, but they only rarely are. VT-6 attacks and its attack is thwarted (most shot down), then VT-8 attacks (all shot down, one survivor), then, finally, the SBDs, which actually were something of a swarm. Each built upon the next.
I have the idea that when McClusky and his guys arrived on top, the carrier fighter CAP was pretty thin in numbers anyway. Supposed to be twenty eight in the CAP for all four ships combined, but I think there might have been less than ten still up when it mattered most.
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Smudge617
Well-Known Member
15c for a burger that's a while back.
Bruette
Well-Known Member
I can remember in the late 80s McDonalds on North Point Blvd. in Baltimore County, MD ran exceptional deals. My favorite was ten regular hamburgers for one dollar! You had to buy ten. No problem, I took them to see the lady who raised me in her nursing home. I ate nine, she ate one. I was a beast of a man back then and they are some incredibly happy memories.
She took me to McDonalds for my first visit, in a taxi. She had polo when she was a young girl. She struggled to walk, but she could walk.
There were no tables inside. We sat on the bench that was built into the side wall.
It looked like this.;
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Smudge617
Well-Known Member
Wow, you have some great memories of that time.
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