History of All Kinds

[Iron Horseman]

Makes you wonder if it were divine intervention.

I've always drawn that conclusion for Midway.

 

[bnsf971]

I've always drawn that conclusion for Midway.

I remember a quote from Chester Nimitz, "Were we better than the Japs? Or just luckier?"

 

[Iron Horseman]

I remember a quote from Chester Nimitz, "Were we better than the Japs? Or just luckier?"

And I also don't understand why after the Japanese fleet figured out where the carriers were, why they didn't move their carriers away from them instead of closer. The zeros and zeeks had a longer range, they could have taken advantage of that, while at the same time bringing their traditional fleet (with the battleships around) to go attack the carriers.

Yeah Yeah, I know arm chair Admirality.... Some times one needs to go against the standard play book.

 

[Smudge617]

Why call off operation Sea Lion? It would have been easier to confront the RAF over the channel.

Why did Goering switch to bombing civilians in the Battle of Britian?

Operation Sea Lion was called off because the Luftwaffe did not control the skies above the Channel, which it had to do in order for their invasion of Britain to succeed, slow moving ships are an easy target for aircraft, as we found out at Dunkirk, that's one of the reason's so much deception and effort was put into making the Germans particularly Hitler, believe the main invasion was going to be over the Calais straights.

Because of this, Hitler refused to allow the heavy regiments, mainly the tank divisions, to move towards Normandy as he believed it was a diversionary assault and Calais was still the main area for the invasion of Europe, it took them 24hrs to realise that Normandy was the actual main invasion point, which allowed the Allied forces enough time to build and reinforce the bridgehead.

Mulberry Harbour, Arromanches, Normandy. September 1944.

You may know of an rehearsal for D-Day that took place on the 27th April 1944, off Slapton Sands in Devon, unfortunately a small unit of German Torpedo Boats on patrol found the assault craft and sunk several resulting in the death of 946 US servicemen.

Goering switched from bombing RAF bases, because they over estimated the damage they had caused and believed the RAF were no longer able to put sufficient aircraft in the air.

.

 

[Smudge617]

And I also don't understand why after the Japanese fleet figured out where the carriers were, why they didn't move their carriers away from them instead of closer. The zeros and zeeks had a longer range, they could have taken advantage of that, while at the same time bringing their traditional fleet (with the battleships around) to go attack the carriers.

Yeah Yeah, I know arm chair Admirality.... Some times one needs to go against the standard play book.

The answer is simple, the Japanese Navy were under strict orders not to endanger the aircraft carries under any circumstances, seeing as compared to US forces the Japanese were far fewer in number and were desperately needed for the Japanese expansion in Asia.

 

[Bruette]

I've always drawn that conclusion for Midway.

That is a perfect example.

Some plans went wrong but worked perfectly.

 

[Bruette]

Goering switched from bombing RAF bases, because they over estimated the damage they had caused and believed the RAF were no longer able to put sufficient aircraft in the air.

Would that have been the time to launch operation Sea Lion?

I believe the Germans felt the British would surrender. Why take the risk of the invasion?

 

[Smudge617]

That is a perfect example.

Some plans went wrong but worked perfectly.

I was taught that no plan goes to plan after contact with the enemy.
That's why commanders in the field look at the big picture, while the guys on the ground just deal with their area of responsibility.

 

[Smudge617]

Would that have been the time to launch operation Sea Lion?

Probably, but the weather was against them, sea's would have been too rough for the assault craft, as most would have to be either sailed or towed across the channel, and most would likely not have made it across.
if you recall D-Day was delayed by 24 hrs for the same reason.

I believe the Germans felt the British would surrender. Why take the risk of the invasion

I'm not sure about that, but probably because Churchill was not a man to capitulate under threat, if you haven't heard his speech in the House of Commons, the one that says "we will fight them on the beaches" quite stirring stuff.

Interesting fact.
Most of the recordings of Churchill's speeches that he made to the House of Commons during the war, were recorded after the end of WWII

 

[Bruette]

I'm not sure about that, but probably because Churchill was not a man to capitulate under threat, if you haven't heard his speech in the House of Commons, the one that says "we will fight them on the beaches" quite stirring stuff.

From what I know Churchill's idea to fight to the bitter end was in the minority in the British government. His speech inspired and showed that the British people were with Churchill.
This is the speech

I see Churchill as a man of many flaws. But he was the perfect man for his time.

 

[Smudge617]

From what I know Churchill's idea to fight to the bitter end was in the minority in the British government. His speech inspired and showed that the British people were with Churchill.
This is the speech

I see Churchill as a man of many flaws. But he was the perfect man for his time.

A lot of the British government were indeed leaning towards appeasement, mainly because they were tired of war, we still hadn't recovered from the first one, our military was in tatters, (mainly because our generals were still stuck on WWI tactics), Germany's lighting advances across Europe, add in insufficient supplies of both food and war materials to continue the war, appeasement seemed the only choice left.

Fortunately Churchill saw that appeasement would only lead us down a slippery path of subjugation and an ever increasing world dominance of Germany and their ideals, leaving just America and Russia to fight.

Russia was too far away, and were in no position to help and if America were to enter the war, (and at this point in time, most of America had no inclination to enter into another war in Europe) it would need a staging point to counter attack Europe, there's no way America could counter Germany from the continental US, leaving Europe in the hands of a mad dictator. So he realised we had to fight and hope that the agreement with Roosevelt (the lease lend agreement) would give us the means to resist, and also hope the US would realise the danger Germany represented to the US as well.

It's now believed by a lot of historians that Chamberlain's visit to Germany where a agreement was made with Hitler to be nothing more than a stalling tactic to allow the build up of Britain's military.

 

[Bruette]

After the attack on Pearl Harbor we (the United States) declared war on Japan 9/8/1941, not Germany.

Only after Germany declared war on us did we declare war on Germany, 9/11/1941

What would have happened if Japan had not attacked Pearl Harbor?

Like Churchill I see Franklin Rosevelt as a man of many flaws. But he had the foresight to prepare the US for war.

In today's world Lend Lease would likely have been challenged in the courts.

For me, the sad part is many Americans still think we can stand alone. There are those who want to withdrawal our support for Ukraine. Like Hitler in Mein Kumpf Putin has all but outlined his desire to restore the Soviet Union.

 

[Smudge617]

After the attack on Pearl Harbor we (the United States) declared war on Japan 9/8/1941, not Germany.

That's technically correct, but as I understand it, Japan and Germany had a mutual alliance agreement, so when the US declared war on Japan they also (technically) declared war on Germany.

What would have happened if Japan had not attacked Pearl Harbor

First, I'd probably be speaking German, but it's doubtful the US would have anywhere near the influence it has today, as well as the freedom's the US hold so close to it's heart they would have been eroded over the years as the country sought to protect itself, so a former president's idea of an isolationist style US would already be old news.

For me, the sad part is many Americans still think we can stand alone. There are those who want to withdrawal our support for Ukraine. Like Hitler in Mein Kumpf Putin has all but outlined his desire to restore the Soviet Union

I have to agree with you on that one, Putin believes that in order to "protect" his country, invasion his only course of action, and we (in Europe) are to blame, far more should have been done after he walked into Crimea.

Ukraine needs to be supported by everyone (I have a couple of ex army buddies out there) Ukraine is, in essence, not only warding off an expansionist Russia, there also fighting WW3, on a smaller scale.
Putin already has eyes on the other former Soviet states, Estonia, Latvia etc. and no doubt see's himself as the next Stalin, main reason both those countries are struggling to join not just the European Union but also NATO as fast as possible, as Finland has recently done.

 

[Bruette]

That's technically correct, but as I understand it, Japan and Germany had a mutual alliance agreement, so when the US declared war on Japan they also (technically) declared war on Germany.

You are probably correct. I have never read the entire "Pact of Steel" between Germany, Italy, and Japan. I'll have to do that, sometime.

First, I'd probably be speaking German, but it's doubtful the US would have anywhere near the influence it has today, as well as the freedom's the US hold so close to it's heart they would have been eroded over the years as the country sought to protect itself, so a former president's idea of an isolationist style US would already be old news.

I think it would end in nuclear conflict. Without Great Britian's constant harassment Germany would have had the atomic bomb.

I have to agree with you on that one, Putin believes that in order to "protect" his country, invasion his only course of action, and we (in Europe) are to blame, far more should have been done after he walked into Crimea.

Putin is on a path to destruction. My only hope is it ends in his destruction.

Ukraine needs to be supported by everyone (I have a couple of ex army buddies out there) Ukraine is, in essence, not only warding off an expansionist Russia, there also fighting WW3, on a smaller scale.

WIII, that is a view I have not heard before. A poignant and perceptive observation. God be with your friends and all those who are defending freedom in Ukraine.

Putin already has eyes on the other former Soviet states, Estonia, Latvia etc. and no doubt see's himself as the next Stalin, main reason both those countries are struggling to join not just the European Union but also NATO as fast as possible, as Finland has recently done.

He already occupies parts Georgia and Moldova. Finland joining NATO had to be a devastating blow to Putin. One bright spot in all of this; America has reaffirmed our commitment to NATO. All of Europe as well. Germany's commitment to increased defense spending is unprecedented. The more countries that join NATO the better


Brilliant Smudge! Thank you very much for your thoughts and time! I don't mean that as an end to this discussion.

 

[NorthBrit]

Going back to the section regarding Dunkirk.


After Dunkirk, though a large number surrended, British and French soldiers continued to fight. The battle continued all along Northern France. Some managed to be evacuated at Le Havre. Between the 15th and 25th June, 191,870 British, Polish and Czech troops and some equipment and stores were evacuated from the French coastal ports of Cherbourg, St Malo, Brest, St Nazaire, Nantes, La Pallice, Le Verdon, Bordeaux, Bayonne and St Jean-de-Luz.

My grandfather was was a lucky one to escape leaving from the Port of Brest.

Operation Cycle and Operation Ariel » Dunkirk 1940 - The Before, The Reality, The Aftermath

dunkirk1940.org

David

 

[Smudge617]

He already occupies parts Georgia and Moldova. Finland joining NATO had to be a devastating blow to Putin. One bright spot in all of this; America has reaffirmed our commitment to NATO. All of Europe as well. Germany's commitment to increased defense spending is unprecedented. The more countries that join NATO the better

Yes, but by doing so they have become the "enemies" of the Russian people, or that's what the Russian media will tell the people.

This is a worry, although America has re affirmed it's commitment to NATO, that can and was, sharply curtailed by the previous administration, and as the same person is likely to stand again if he were to win, there is a likelihood that the support that has been promised to Ukraine could disappear, the tanks etc promised are still in the US and are unlikely to be deployed for at least 12 months.
I believe a statement was made declaring that he could "solve the dispute in a day" (or something like that), only way that could happen would be if Ukraine were forced to give up the area already occupied by Russia, which would unofficially give permission for Putin to seize any country he liked as no one could oppose him without US backing, which they would be unlikely to get as he has little interest as far as I can see, in Europe.

 

[RIGuyUK]

Yes, but by doing so they have become the "enemies" of the Russian people, or that's what the Russian media will tell the people.

This is a worry, although America has re affirmed it's commitment to NATO, that can and was, sharply curtailed by the previous administration, and as the same person is likely to stand again if he were to win, there is a likelihood that the support that has been promised to Ukraine could disappear, the tanks etc promised are still in the US and are unlikely to be deployed for at least 12 months.
I believe a statement was made declaring that he could "solve the dispute in a day" (or something like that), only way that could happen would be if Ukraine were forced to give up the area already occupied by Russia, which would unofficially give permission for Putin to seize any country he liked as no one could oppose him without US backing, which they would be unlikely to get as he has little interest as far as I can see, in Europe.

I was in Krakow last week and got speaking to a lovely Russian couple who live in Poland, they told me that they want Russia wiped off the map! They were saying that Putin is a laughing stock amongst the general population, but there is nothing they can do about him due to the corruption of the Kremlin

We don't know the extent of what military equipment has been promised to Ukraine, what we are told will be very different to what will supplied (and is already there that we wont know about due to security reasons)

 

[Smudge617]

I was in Krakow last week and got speaking to a lovely Russian couple who live in Poland, they told me that they want Russia wiped off the map! They were saying that Putin is a laughing stock amongst the general population, but there is nothing they can do about him due to the corruption of the Kremlin

I have a ex army mate in Germany, known him 30+ years, married to a very nice Russian girl who has two adult kids still in Russia, they talk on the phone every week, his wife is disgusted by what is happening in the Ukraine, but her kid's, they are unfortunately Putin believer's, she's tried explaining that what they are being told by Russian media, but she's been "brainwashed by her husband", they still talk, but avoid anything to do with Ukraine

 

[Smudge617]

We don't know the extent of what military equipment has been promised to Ukraine, what we are told will be very different to what will supplied (and is already there that we wont know about due to security reasons)

We know quite a lot, you only have closely watch the various news channel's and they are plain to see if you know what to look for. There was even a whole program about the British Army crash training Ukrainian national's .
The bigger stuff Tanks and artillery are more difficult, takes a lot more training, not only of the crews, but all the support staff, mechanic's etc. along with spare parts.

One of the reason's no aircraft are being supplied by Europe, it would take far too long to re-train pilot's and ground crew's to operate and maintain them and again the logistic's involved.

 

[RIGuyUK]

I have a ex army mate in Germany, known him 30+ years, married to a very nice Russian girl who has two adult kids still in Russia, they talk on the phone every week, his wife is disgusted by what is happening in the Ukraine, but her kid's, they are unfortunately Putin believer's, she's tried explaining that what they are being told by Russian media, but she's been "brainwashed by her husband", they still talk, but avoid anything to do with Ukraine

That was a thing the couple I was speaking mentioned, its a lot of the younger folk who are falling for the media stories.

I was in Kiev with work 7 years ago, beautiful city, I would love to go back and see it properly at some point in the future