Getting back into it after 30 years

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Welcome, I'm in the same situation and about 3 months further down the track from you. I second the video channels above. I watched hours of videos before starting, finally realizing that for a lot of these things there is no "right" answer (although there are some wrong ones).

I've been ordering mainly from Trainworld, Hobbylinc, Scenic Express, Woodland Scenics, and Walthers. One thing I realized early on is that I was not going to find one online store to do all my shopping at, and certainly not one that has the best prices on every aspect of the hobby.

I also discovered that a lot of generic tools and supplies are much cheaper from hobby stores or even home improvement barns than from model railway specialists - the general rule seems to be the narrower the specialization, the higher the price. So for example I got my hot foam cutter from a general hobby supply place, my needle files from Home Depot, a lot of glues and paints from Hobby Lobby and Michaels, a mini-vacuum cleaner from Amazon, etc.

One great example is "foam nails" from Woodland Scenics, which are $7.99 for 75 on their website. You can buy the exact same thing at a craft or sewing store labeled as "t-pins" or "quilter's pins" for $1.99 for 100.
One thing about me is I don't throw much out. I have probably a few hundred of the t pins from building model planes and the wood buildings along with laying track. I think my biggest hurdle is the different types of adhesives as they've changed over the years.
 
I have probably a few hundred of the t pins from building model planes and the wood buildings along with laying track.
I was an RC airplane builder as well.

The T-pins come in real handy for cork roadbed, and track laying. Here is how I used them.
1743110079468.png


. I think my biggest hurdle is the different types of adhesives as they've changed over the years.

For track and cork, use a latex caulk. If you want to later move things or reuse the cork and track on another layout it just peels up with a putty knife with no damage. Don't have to use much just a small line and spread it with your finger.

1743110196822.png
 
Well it's been awhile , anyway I'm getting closer to actually building the frame work for the layout. In the mean time I've been looking and buying up different odds and ends .Next up is getting the lumber for the frame work. Oh yeah, I changed the track plan. I'll post it as soon as I can figure this out.If you see any trouble areas please let me know. Thanks in advance.
 

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Well it's been awhile , anyway I'm getting closer to actually building the frame work for the layout. In the mean time I've been looking and buying up different odds and ends .Next up is getting the lumber for the frame work. Oh yeah, I changed the track plan. I'll post it as soon as I can figure this out.If you see any trouble areas please let me know. Thanks in advance.
If you can save the track plan as a jpg or some other image format rather than a PDF you will be able to insert the image directly in your post and make it easier for others to view.

Other than the track alignment issue in the inside of the upper loop and a couple reverse loops I don't see anything that is a problem. And of course reverse loops are not a problem as long and you gap the track and provide a switch to reverse the polarity. As a lone operator you might want to have a way to run a second train on an independent loop while you are moving another train. Yes you could do it with blocks, but having two trains chasing each other around the layout as a sole operator will get tedious fast. If you double track your tunnel you can have a outside loop that runs a train while you switch the industries on the inside loop and vice-versa.
 
Looking at the plan in reply 23...

The turntable "doesn't belong".
There's no logical purpose for it to be there, as there is no yard or terminal which would need a turntable.

What you DO need (in the area that the turntable is in) is a small yard to serve as the base from which your trains move out to service the industrial tracks.

The track in the upper-middle is too crooked and will promote derailments.
Make it straighter. The switch in the middle should be left-hand, not right-hand.

The industrial track at the very top has no room for the building(s) of whatever industry it's going to serve. You might relocate that track further to the right, to create that room.
 
If you can save the track plan as a jpg or some other image format rather than a PDF you will be able to insert the image directly in your post and make it easier for others to view.
Thanks for the tip. I did change it and reposted. With the switches ,are they going to need a reverse loop switch? This will be a strictly DC powered layout. I have a lot of older locomotives that I don't think I'll be able to convert to DCC due to the construction of them . They would be a total pain to convert.The track misalingment was ,I think, due to me getting tired and getting sloppy when I planned it . I think when it comes to laying the track I'll be ok. I like your ideas about the double tracking the tunnel. Thanks again for your input
 
Looking at the plan in reply 23...

The turntable "doesn't belong".
There's no logical purpose for it to be there, as there is no yard or terminal which would need a turntable.

What you DO need (in the area that the turntable is in) is a small yard to serve as the base from which your trains move out to service the industrial tracks.

The track in the upper-middle is too crooked and will promote derailments.
Make it straighter. The switch in the middle should be left-hand, not right-hand.

The industrial track at the very top has no room for the building(s) of whatever industry it's going to serve. You might relocate that track further to the right, to create that room.
Thanks for your reply. You brought up some interesting points.
There really is no railroad I'm trying to model. I think I'm going after the early 1900's in an area that is still behind the times somewhat .Kind of like a rural area.
The turntable is there because I wanted one. I plan to store extra locomotives there while I run others. That will be on a separate circuit that will be only for the turntable, at least that is my plan at the moment.
The crooked track? Are you referring to the part where it sort of doglegs between the 2 switches? I was wondering about that when I was planning this . I may eliminate that section altogether .
The track at the top,which isn't the same now due to changing the picture to a jpeg file , isn't going to be an industrial track. there really isn't going to be any real large industry right now as I have it planned. This is more or less going to be a small countryside town so to speak.
The way the current picture of the layout is the way it will be set up . The long side will be against a wall with a small area between the wall and the layout. I plan on putting some backdrops up or some of the shallow buildings I've seen.
I really appreciate your suggestions . Since there is nothing in stone yet ,there is always room to change the plan. Again, Thank you for your suggestions. Hopefully I can get started on the framework in the next 2 -3 weeks.
 
The turntable "doesn't belong".
There's no logical purpose for it to be there, as there is no yard or terminal which would need a turntable.
Without structures in place whether a turntable is plausible or not is hard to determine, as steam engines need to be turned for they usually run forward in service. A station between the two tracks on the curve before the lead to turntable makes it plausible. Adding a roundhouse there with a coal tipple, water tower, and sanding facility gives you a complete steam engine servicing facility.

What you DO need (in the area that the turntable is in) is a small yard to serve as the base from which your trains move out to service the industrial tracks.
Yes a yard would be useful to store cars that are not currently in the train or at industries. Looks like there is room between the turntable and the mainline, especially if you eliminate the one radial track off the turntable that heads towards the tunnel.

The track in the upper-middle is too crooked and will promote derailments.
Make it straighter. The switch in the middle should be left-hand, not right-hand.
There are a few not connected tracks, I figure this is just the quickness of putting the plan together and/or the Altas software not connecting things it should have.

The industrial track at the very top has no room for the building(s) of whatever industry it's going to serve. You might relocate that track further to the right, to create that room.
The industry can be off layout or a flat you don't have to model all the buildings.
 
With the switches ,are they going to need a reverse loop switch? This will be a strictly DC powered layout
Actually DC/DCC doesn't matter any time you have a train looping back and going in the opposite direction from entering the loop you'll need an electric switch to reverse polarity so it matches. Here is a simple diagram of how to wire a reverse loop.
reverse-loop.png

You don't necessarily need the DPDT switch for the mainline as you can use the direction switch on the power pack, but that will affect any other train on the layout as well depending on how you wire things and whether or not you use multiple power packs.
 
You don't necessarily need the DPDT switch for the mainline as you can use the direction switch on the power pack, but that will affect any other train on the layout as well depending on how you wire things and whether or not you use multiple power packs.
Thanks for your input. I do have a couple of books on wiring a layout. One is from Atlas, and the other is from Model Railroader ,by Larry Puckett. I need to get some use out of them before I start laying track. I have been thinking about your suggestion of double tracking the tunnel and I may do just that . I think I could lose 2 of the switches and make the inner loop isolated from the outer loop. Or I think I could add 2 more switches and still run the 2 loops separately as long as I use a dual cab set up. I need to study that some more and check out the wiring books for some help. There really is no reason not to do that so I could switch up which train I run where. It could make for some interesting operating sessions. I'll probably wait until I get the framework up and get the buildings I have situated to make that decision.
Again thanks for your insight and comments I really appreciate it.
 


And now for something totally different! DCC is way better than DC. Much easier to wire and operate. DCC is intimidating at first but you (I) get/got used to it. If you plan on using atlas turnouts, good luck. I started with Atlas track, laying the roadbed, what a PITA! I now use Kato Unitrack, it has built in roadbed, and is totally reliable. I have had about 100 Kato turnouts & had 1 fail! The 1 drawback is limited track choices for track sections. I have built some pretty complicated layouts with Unitrack tho.
Just my $.02
PS Coincidentally I have massive amounts of track, locos, rolling stock & NCE dcc systems. I wish to sell ;) All quality stuff and great prices! Online stores usually give 25% of list price. I will give 50% off, yes, my stuff is used but very lightly.
PPS Anyhoot, welcome! And remember the rules....RULES!? RULES!? We don't need no stinking rules! It's your railroad, do what ever you want & have fun!
 
Actually DC/DCC doesn't matter any time you have a train looping back and going in the opposite direction from entering the loop you'll need an electric switch to reverse polarity so it matches.

I know I'm being pedantic, but for the sake of completeness, with DCC the switch is reversing the phase rather than the polarity as DCC is AC. But in any case, the switch is still needed.
 
I know I'm being pedantic, but for the sake of completeness, with DCC the switch is reversing the phase rather than the polarity as DCC is AC. But in any case, the switch is still needed.
Jacob: Just to clarify a tad: DCC is not AC even though that is what most folks think; probably cuz the way the measure it with a DMM or other meter. Most set the DMM at AC and stick one probe on one rail, the other probe on the other rail. See the purple waveform below.

DCCWaveform.jpg

The yellow and blue waveforms show DCC as positive going pulses that are inverted logic wise, not polarity. In other words, the low level of each trace is 0 volts, not ground and the upper level is 1/2 the purple wave reading. Paragraph 3 above describes the connection setup with a scope.

Dccwiki Good reference here.

L8r
 
And now for something totally different! DCC is way better than DC. Much easier to wire and operate. DCC is intimidating at first but you (I) get/got used to it. If you plan on using atlas turnouts, good luck. I started with Atlas track, laying the roadbed, what a PITA! I now use Kato Unitrack, it has built in roadbed, and is totally reliable. I have had about 100 Kato turnouts & had 1 fail! The 1 drawback is limited track choices for track sections. I have built some pretty complicated layouts with Unitrack tho.
I appreciate the input. I have been looking at DCC a bit and it still looks like there's a 95% chance this will be an all DC layout. Converting all of my locomotives will be a huge pain , the NEWEST is from the early 1980's and the oldest is from the 1960's. The wiring for what I want to do will be a major undertaking. I do have a plan and I do need to do some more research but I do have a bit of time before the actual construction begins.
I did like the Kato track when I looked at it. It was a bit more pricey than the Atlas. but I saw the sizes were different and I 'm thinking that may negate the price difference by using less track sections. The price on the turnouts are a sticking point though. I'm going to see if I can convert the track plan I currently have from Atlas to Kato.
Again, thanks for the input.
 
Just to clarify a tad: DCC is not AC even though that is what most folks think; probably cuz the way the measure it with a DMM or other meter.
[edit: if you read my previous notes here, ignore them. I was having a brain malfunction; what I originally said is correct AFAICT, based on my reading of the standard described in NMRA S-9.1. Therefore, my original message below stands. Some of what I said in my edits would have been idiotically wrong even if that hadn't been the case. :)]

I've seen this said a few times, and as I understand it, it's incorrect. While it is not sinusoidal AC like what you expect from a wall outlet, it is definitely an AC signal. The sine wave isn't actually required for it to be AC.

As to the negative voltage issue, that's a matter of reference; there is no such thing as "absolute ground" or "absolute 0V" in this context, and thus whether a voltage is positive or negative is entirely relative to what you're measuring it against. This is one thing that took me a long time to come to terms with when it came to electricity and electronics.

What's important -- what makes it an AC signal -- is that the current flow reverses direction periodically.

If I understand the protocol correctly, then in a DCC system, it does that. During one phase, where (for example) the left rail is at 12V and the right rail is at 0V, current flows from the left rail to the right rail. In the next phase, the situation is reversed, and the current is flowing from the right rail to the left rail. This continually alternates, hence alternating current.

[Aside: even the direction of current flow between positive and negative is apparently an arbitrary assumption, though; there are multiple schools of thought on which direction current is actually flowing between positive or negative, or so said my electronics 101 teacher. This Is A Dark Art, IMO.]

So it's completely correct to say that DCC is an AC signal. It's just not a 60Hz sinusoidal one.

Caveat: I've had only a single college-level course on the topic and a bit of personal circuit design experience, and that's it, so if someone with a degree in this stuff wants to chime in and correct me, feel free. And if that's you, @ctclibby, please explain where I got it wrong, because I definitely want to know! :)
 
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I did like the Kato track when I looked at it.
I have a bunch of Unitrack, and love it. That said, I'm likely not going to use it in my layout for one reason: noise.

I haven't tested the theory yet, but I suspect the Kato roadbed, due to the way it's designed (hollow space underneath), is going to amplify unwanted sounds. I expect that flex track on a cork roadbed or similar will be much quieter.

The only indication I've had that this is true is in my play layout: it's all Unitrack, and I have one little section that is a bridge (out of the Kato V2 set) with no real roadbed. When my locos go across that, they are practically silent by comparison to traversing the rest of the track.

Something to keep in mind for your decision making if noise level matters to you. :)

At some point I need to set up a testbed, but I'm currently being lazy.
 
[edit: if you read my previous notes here, ignore them. I was having a brain malfunction; what I originally said is correct AFAICT, based on my reading of the standard described in NMRA S-9.1. Therefore, my original message below stands. Some of what I said in my edits would have been idiotically wrong even if that hadn't been the case. :)]

I've seen this said a few times, and as I understand it, it's incorrect. While it is not sinusoidal AC like what you expect from a wall outlet, it is definitely an AC signal. The sine wave isn't actually required for it to be AC.

As to the negative voltage issue, that's a matter of reference; there is no such thing as "absolute ground" or "absolute 0V" in this context, and thus whether a voltage is positive or negative is entirely relative to what you're measuring it against. This is one thing that took me a long time to come to terms with when it came to electricity and electronics.

What's important -- what makes it an AC signal -- is that the current flow reverses direction periodically.

If I understand the protocol correctly, then in a DCC system, it does that. During one phase, where (for example) the left rail is at 12V and the right rail is at 0V, current flows from the left rail to the right rail. In the next phase, the situation is reversed, and the current is flowing from the right rail to the left rail. This continually alternates, hence alternating current.

[Aside: even the direction of current flow between positive and negative is apparently an arbitrary assumption, though; there are multiple schools of thought on which direction current is actually flowing between positive or negative, or so said my electronics 101 teacher. This Is A Dark Art, IMO.]

So it's completely correct to say that DCC is an AC signal. It's just not a 60Hz sinusoidal one.

Caveat: I've had only a single college-level course on the topic and a bit of personal circuit design experience, and that's it, so if someone with a degree in this stuff wants to chime in and correct me, feel free. And if that's you, @ctclibby, please explain where I got it wrong, because I definitely want to know! :)

This is also my understanding. The signal to the decoder is carried in the timing of the pulses (or if you prefer, the timing of the direction switches - it's a matter of taste how you think of it), similar to "typical" PWM signals, for example to control a servo.

The IMPORTANT difference is that the PWM signal to a servo is an on/off DC signal: sometimes the voltage is +5v (or +3V3, depending on the system), other times it is 0V, i.e. the +ve and -ve leads are at the same voltage.*

If DCC were implemented that way, the voltage delivered to the track would be constantly fluctuating between 0V and +24V, which obviously is not good for powering things. Instead, DCC provides a constant voltage either in one direction or in the other, i.e. an AC signal, which is then rectified by the decoder to provide constant DC power. This allows both power and signal to be delivered by a single pair of wires. (The oscilloscope pictures are a bit misleading here.)

Bottom line: DCC uses AC power, with current always flowing in one direction or the other.

----

As to the other stuff insomniville said, I too had the same challenges. I took S Level physics in England (comparable to a first year college course if you're left-ponded, I think) and it was only many years later that I grokked that voltage is always measured relative to some reference point, usually the -ve terminal of the battery or a DC power supply or the GND pin on an Arduino, Pi, etc. This is why when you are building electronic circuits, all of the components need to be connected to the same ground, i.e. they all agree on what 0V is. And that's why you'll sometimes see circuits refer to it as "common", i.e. all the components have that ground "in common".***

And yes, I was also confused for many years about the difference between 0V, "ground"**** and the -ve terminal. For example, my battery/power supply has terminals labeled +ve and -ve, whereas my Arduino has pins labeled 5V (or just V) and GND. For our purposes, they are the same thing: the reference point from which we measure voltage.

Eventually I trained my brain not to think in terms of "voltage" but rather "voltage drop", with a mental image of water flowing downstream: there is no "absolute" water level*****, only how far the water drops between one point and another.

This page has a helpful explanation in more detail, with pictures.

And finally, wrt direction of current flow: historically, the early investigators of electricity arbitrarily defined which way current was flowing, and labeled +ve and -ve accordingly.**** This convention is called... uh... conventional current or flow. Many years later, it was discovered that electrons were negatively charged, so physically they are moving in the opposite direction to conventional current. Any circuit diagram you ever see will use conventional current direction unless it very clearly says otherwise. This is critical for getting your LEDs (and other diodes) the right way around.

----

*This is why with a DC servo, constant power is delivered by two other leads separate from the signal.

**Confusingly, electricians also use "ground" as shorthand for "earth ground", which is a connection directly to the Earth itself. That's the third pin in a three-pin plug, and it protects against shocks e.g. from a short ciruit by routing the power into the Earth, which can safely absorb it. And to make life really confusing, they use the same symbol for both senses of "ground".

***For example, with a DC servo, the +ve power voltage and the signal voltage are both measured relative to the common GND lead (typically black in low-voltage electronic circuits, but for some reason often brown in servo connectors. *shrug*).

****Not even sea level is the same everywhere in the world, it turns out.

*****This is where the "water level" metaphor breaks down. Water has a very specific downward direction thanks to gravity. The voltage direction of electricity is an arbitrary convention.
 

Jacob Z

insomniville


You can call DCC what ever you wish. I suggest that you go and read the NMRA s-9.1 spec again. Dccwiki.com has yet more maybe simplier explanations.

From the dccwiki FAQ, find 'Is DCC power AC?'. From there if you need more information, click on the 'DCC Power' link in that reference.

Boosters use a transistor/FET stack for power output; kinda 1/2 of an H Bridge. If transistor, NPN and PNP, else nFET and pFET. Input from a throttle is fed to the stacked transistor/FETs. It outputs the binary coded input signal on RailA and RailB in which RailB is the opposite logic value of RailA, polarity does not come into play. One transistor/FET is on while the other is off. Electrons flow in one direction only. No ground is associated with it either; basically the waveform 'floats' on the rails.

The NMRA spec has a pix of the waveform which pretty much confuses everybody. They do not tell you where they are referencing the trace. The wiki on the other hand does tell you how they referenced the waveforms.

Besides decoding the signal, it also full wave rectifies and filters the signal, creating power for the device and its associated connected candy. The decoder creates its own ground for onboard use.

Conventional Current vs Electron Flow - it really does not matter how you think of it. It all boils down to voltage drops and power. I mean: who cares which direction those little arrows in a Transistor, FET or Diode point? Well if you are designing something, you do. You know that the arrow points to GND/negative; with the other end VCC/positive; think LED. All electronic schematics show conventional current via component symbol design. It would be pretty much impossible to do it any other way.

Engineers talk in Conventional Current, Technicians talk in Electron Flow. Who is right? Both.

I have a degree in Electronics 1987 and worked the field in the Seattle/Everett area for 17 years doing component level repair and some design work. Moved to Libby in '04, still do repair and design although not for others. Yes, solder is still my favorite way of coding something; Assembly is next.

L8r
 
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I should probably wait until after I sleep to respond because I'm too tired to research in depth ATM, but...

One transistor/FET is on while the other is off. Electrons flow in one direction only. No ground is associated with it either; basically the waveform 'floats' on the rails.
Can you point me to a schematic for a booster that shows that? Because that statement makes no sense at all to me.

For power to be transferred, there must be a circuit. If, at all time points, one rail is left floating and one has +V applied, and the load is connected across the rails, then no current is ever going to flow at all, because there's no return path and thus no circuit. One rail must be connected to a ground equivalent while the other rail is connected to a +V equivalent for energy to flow, according to every bit of electrical knowledge I have to my name.

I did a quick google for booster schematics, but the few I found in five minutes use an actual full H-bridge.

I'm off to sleep now (this is *late* for me), but I'll be back tomorrow (later today for you ;).

[note: I cannot currently access DCCwiki, and not for lack of trying, so I haven't looked there for schematics yet. Their security is blocking me for some unknown reason. Go Cloudflare! Grrrr.]
 


Jacob Z

insomniville


You can call DCC what ever you wish. I suggest that you go and read the NMRA s-9.1 spec again. Dccwiki.com has yet more maybe simplier explanations.

From the dccwiki FAQ, find 'Is DCC power AC?'. From there if you need more information, click on the 'DCC Power' link in that reference.

Boosters use a transistor/FET stack for power output; kinda 1/2 of an H Bridge. If transistor, NPN and PNP, else nFET and pFET. Input from a throttle is fed to the stacked transistor/FETs. It outputs the binary coded input signal on RailA and RailB in which RailB is the opposite logic value of RailA, polarity does not come into play. One transistor/FET is on while the other is off. Electrons flow in one direction only. No ground is associated with it either; basically the waveform 'floats' on the rails.

The NMRA spec has a pix of the waveform which pretty much confuses everybody. They do not tell you where they are referencing the trace. The wiki on the other hand does tell you how they referenced the waveforms.

Besides decoding the signal, it also full wave rectifies and filters the signal, creating power for the device and its associated connected candy. The decoder creates its own ground for onboard use.

Conventional Current vs Electron Flow - it really does not matter how you think of it. It all boils down to voltage drops and power. I mean: who cares which direction those little arrows in a Transistor, FET or Diode point? Well if you are designing something, you do. You know that the arrow points to GND/negative; with the other end VCC/positive; think LED. All electronic schematics show conventional current via component symbol design. It would be pretty much impossible to do it any other way.

Engineers talk in Conventional Current, Technicians talk in Electron Flow. Who is right? Both.

I have a degree in Electronics 1987 and worked the field in the Seattle/Everett area for 17 years doing component level repair and some design work. Moved to Libby in '04, still do repair and design although not for others. Yes, solder is still my favorite way of coding something; Assembly is next.

L8r
Got to thinking about the transistor/fet thing. Makes no sense to say 1/2 H Bridge as insomniville pointed out - Did some looking and found schematics for DiY DCC Booster. It is a whole H Bridge. Hope I did not confuse things.

DiY Booster

L8r
 




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