FRUSTRATION CITY.. Who's to Blame For This?

[hamltnblue]

Like I said; I now have the one Atlas DCC Unit running but none of the others. As was suggested; tomorrow I will try hooking up the DB150 to a piece of track, without going thru the PM42, and see what that does.

Also, Rico and Terry mentioned trying DC. I don't have a DC transformer except: I have one with my old Lionel "O" gauge which is about 65 years old and worked the last time I tried it, about 45 years ago. How about trying it?

Wahoo

Do you like whine with your toast, because that's what you might be doing when you hook those nice loco's to your old lionel transformer.
The idea of using your DCC equipment is to isolate your issue. Start with the loco that you're having the most luck with, then move to the next etc. if one doesn't work (except for the DC one's, leave them off the DCC) try resetting the decoder.

 

[NH Mike]

And people wonder why I still use DC.

Yup, me too. I can create enough chaos on my own without any help from technology.

 

[UP2CSX]

Just because you bought the equipment new, it doesn't mean you can't have an out of the box failure in some compnent. You are getting the right advice. Start right at the beginining, as if you were just starting to build the layout. Use the the control unit on one track section, with no boosters or other accesories in the circuit. I'm betting you can reset and make most of your your engines run if you do it this way. Then it's just a matter of adding a component back into the system one at a time until you find out which one has failed. It's also possible you have one or more failed or failing decoders as well, which confounds things even more. Take one engine and one step at a time. Write down the results and then post them here. The more information we can get about how the basic systems are working, the better guess we can make about what is failing.

 

[Wahoo]

Frustation city

This is to bring you all up to date on (newly named rail road - "FRUSTATION CITY") where I am at this point. Once again, all of my engines are new with factory DCC and Sound and only 7 of about 30 have caused problems so far.

1. Atlas SD40-2 Master Series with DCC & Sound.
a. Placed on the program track and used the "magic wand". It came to life and seems to be well again.

2. Atlas SD40-2 Master Series with DC and no sound (DCC ready).
a. As suggesed earlier in this thread, I tested the motor using a 9V batt. The motor runs but wll not run on the track.

3. The 2 Bachmann's with DCC and Sound.
a. Each were placed on the program track and made efforts to reprogram the addresses without success.

4. Broadway Limited Cab Forward with DCC & Sound.
a. Tried using the reset button as prescribed in the Model instructions without success.
b. Tried reprograming the address on the program track and also on the main track (without other engines on the track). Still no success.

5. Broadway Limited Blue Line N&W Class A. 2-6-6-2 w/DC & Snd.
a. Tried bringing power up using address "03 and 00 both on the main track and on the programing track without success.

6. I called Bachmann Customer Service, explanned my problems and was told to return the engines to Bachmann which I've done.

7. Called BLI, talked to a very nice tech guy, Mark I think. After explaning my problems and what I've done to try to bring them back up he told me to return them to him which I did.

I still need to contact Atlas about the engine in paragraph 2. Also, I still need to contact Digitrax as I am unable to reduce the power with the little yellow screw in the DCS100. Power is running a strong 15V and the Atlas guy a couple of weeks ago, told me that ATlas's are designed to run on a maximum of 13.5V.

I certainly appreciate the assistance you all have offered.

 

[diburning]

1. Good to hear that your engine works

2. open it up and check the gears. If it's missing a gear or one of the gears are stripped, the motor can no longer drive the wheels. Or, perhaps the worm gear on the drive shaft is not making contact with the drive gears.

3. Do you know the brand of decoders in them? Some may not be able to handle 4 digit addresses, other may need a programming track booster if it is a sound decoder.

4. Is it a blueline? Was it made before the software upgrade? If you can program on direct or ops mode, that would work if the software is the issue.

5. Did you install a decoder in it? If not, make sure the BLI factory dummy plug is in it. The dummy plug, when used with the BLI's on-board sound-only decoder is like a basic decoder and will respond to address 03. (BLI dummy plugs only)

6. Good

7. Good

Atlas will refuse to fix or diagnose your problem unless you send the item back first. After you send it back, they will look at is, see whether the problem is covered under warranty or if you're responsible for the problem. Then, they will call you and let you know your options. If they conclude that it was not an issue covered under warranty, they will give you the option to repair for a small fee or have your engine returned.

 

[Wahoo]

Just a few more things;

The Atlas Silver SD 40-2 in DC, item 2 above; the motor - wheels turned with the engine off the track and wheels placed against the poles on a 9V battery. But replacing it on the track motor and wheels wouldn't turn.

Today I placed another new out of the box Bachmann Spectrum with Snd. and DCC 4-8-2 on the track with an "03" address, and it would only move 3", make one chuff, and quit only to do the same thing over and over again.

I ran a new Athern Genesis F45 on the track powered with the DCS100 and it ran fine. Then switched it over to the other half of the track, powered with the Booster (DB150), which produces about 15.25V and after a few trips around it quit. Engine didn't feel warm. Then placed it back on the DCS100 powered track (14.5V) and it ran again. I then switched the DB150 to "N" and found Voltage to drop to about 14V. I then ran the F45 a few rounds without a problem on the DB150 track. I'm certain that the higher voltage has been causing problems with the Atlas, BLI and the Athern engines.

Definitely some demons lurking on this RR. Frustation City RR is possessed.

 

[Al Silverstein]

I am relative new to this forum but an old timer model railroaded and a master where DCC is concerned. While I am a N scale modeler what is listed below can or does apply to all scales where DCC is applicable.

Trouble shooting any DCC system requires two things. You need to know that at least half of equipment of a minimum system is functioning properly: command system or decoder. When both are malfunctioning locating the problem or problems becomes much more difficult and for a lone wolf the problem is much more difficult.

I would like to point out here that you may have a number of different problems stemming from a bad command station, overloaded system, electrical wiring problems, other command control components, to massive decoder failure.

You need to first create a situation where you can check the command station and the decoder to insure at least one of them is functioning properly.

1) I created a small test track consisting of an oval, passing siding and a isolated spur. I use it for testing, speed matching, and DCC educational purposes. The spur is connected to the command system via a DPDT toggle switch with a center off position. The common side of the DPDT switch is connected to the isolated spur, one end of the DPDT switch is connected to the main rail output, and the other end of the DPDT switch is connected to the programming output.

2) Forget about the engines with no decoder and the engines with sound for the moment. They are beasts of a different order. I would take them off of the layout and put them somewhere safe along with any lighted passenger cars.

3) I would then disconnect the command station from the layout and connect it to the test track.

4) I would then put one engine, with a decoder, on the spur, set the DPDT switch to program, and try and read the decoder. If I can read the decoder then I would try and reset the decoder to the factory default. Different decoders have different reset procedures to be sure you are applying the right procedure to the right decoder. If the decoder can be read and written to then I know that the command system programmer is functional. You may still have a problem with the rail output and the decoder where for motor control but that will be checked soon.

5) The next step would be to determine what address is active in the decoder and set your throttle to that address. Then slowly move the spur controlling switch from program to run position. Dial up the decoder and try and run it. If it runs then you know that the command system is operating properly. Make sure that your rail power is turned on and that the DCC is going out onto the track. This is done by shorting the rails with a quarter. This is what is referred to as the quarter test. How about that.

6) Should your engine run then I would repeat this process for each engine with a decoder that does not have sound until I had all of these engines running.

Now this still leaves engines without decoders and engines with decoders with sound. There are two issues here.

a) While the system can handle an engine without a decoder it is not a recommended practice. This is because there is always power to the rails and it depends on the zero stretching of the signal as to which direction the engine travels. When the engine is stopped the signal is trying to send the engine first in one direction then the other. This is what causes the buzzing sound from the motor and this can damage some motors. Not all DCC command stations can operate engines without decoders. This was done on purpose to eliminate the possibility of damage.

b) There exists a relatively new scenario starting about four years ago in the DCC world where by many of the engines with sound decoders draw so much power when the start up that the command system thinks there is a short and shuts down. This power surge is often referred to as inrush current and the problem varies depending on the command station and the number and type of sound decoders installed. In many cases special circuit breakers need to be installed to slow down this inrush current situation so that the command system can get past what it thinks is a short. In many cases the command system needs an add on programmer booster in order to program the sound decoders.

Once you get a couple of regular non sound decoder engines to run you can go back and test your layout starting with one engine and adding one engine at a time until the command system starts to fail. Yo may find that without the sound decoders your system is far more stable.

The rule of thumb in any trouble shoot scenario is to start with the most basic scenario possible and work up from there. Often times it is the little things that cause the most irritating problems.

 

[Wahoo]

Al, I appreciate your comming on board. Let me mention a few things that have been going on;

1. Power to the track has never been a problem. There is about 260 feet of total track. The Digitrax Super Chief System with a DCS100 powers about 1/3rd of the track and then a DB150 booster powers the other 2/3rds of the track. The DCS100 powered track Voltage has been measuring about 14.5 and the DB150 powered track has been measuring about 15.3V. There have been no weak or dead spots in any of the track areas. I think I have amply wired the whole RR.

2. All of the engines are new and most of them have factory DCC and Sound.

3. All of the engines, that have been a problem, started up and ran an hour or so then quit running and sound quit also. I was able to bring one of them back up with the help of one of the guys on this forum. I've not been able to bring the other 5 back up.

4. Yesterday I reduced the power at the DB150 Booster by switching from "HO" to "N". This lowered the Voltage to about 14.5 which I think may keep the Atlas engines at least from quiting. We will see how that goes.

5. I have found that most of the BAchmann Steam Engines ran better at the higher voltage and several of them have never experienced a problem. I run them frequently.

I will keep on massaging these problems until a solution is reached. I've returned 2 dead engines to Bachmann and another 2 to BLI and I hope those techs can explain what might have caused them to quit. And can resurrect them without too much difficulty.