Snowman
Well-Known Member
Ah...helpers moving back uphill maybe.
Fighting the sierra grade up to "Dog Soldier Pass" : An ongoing struggle.
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But that's the Rio Grande, lessons won the hard way from experience (wrecks), and other road's rules might vary.
As far as those late sixties/mid-seventies EMD's go (with the original control stand (SD45's)), the correct procedure when cresting a grade was: Drop the throttle progressively down to idle by pulling back on the lever...wait ten seconds, move the lower lever from power to brake (and for the electronics to flip the relays), then move the lever forward again to ramp up the dynamics by raising the prime-mover RPM's back up again, but then bleeding off the excess (decending grade power into the traction motors) and into the toaster grids atop each side. The reason for raising the RPM's was to speed up the fans to draw the heat up and out the top. I read somewhere when EMD's went into dynamic mode, the RPM's automatically jumped up to the equivalent of about RUN 4 (of 8). If the engineer leaned on them even more, and moved the lever further forward, the pitch went higher and higher, and you could clearly hear from trackside as he moved the lever forward for more braking or pulled it back for less.
But that system caused a couple of incidents, where the engineer was pulling up the hill, dropped to idle, but then FORGOT to move the lower lever from power mode into brake mode before raising the engine RPM's again. As you can imagine, it led to a couple of FAST downhill accelerations from the front end already pulling down over the crest...so EMD shifted to a Dash-2 control stand, where the power lever is dropped to idle...10s pause...and then the dynamic lever is brought in instead. Two separate levers, not one.
It may not be obvious, but the head end pulls the train over the crest and downhill again to keep the slack stretched, then gradually dropping to idle and then D-brake to bunch the slack...so the units would pull the train over the crest possibly still in RUN-whatever...and then kick in the dynamics a bit further down the hill. FWIW.
Not a stretch if yours is known as "Dog Soldier Pass."
But not the summit name since the scenery is freelance with the exception of 2 scenes, Sullivan's curve and Spider bridge.
As you know It refers to the indian warriors in charge of protecting their people.
Concerning the portals I mentioned that in my layout building thread.
I also mentioned the tunnel east of Sullivan's Curve, the inspiration for the portals came from the now gone tunnels at Alray, Cajon Pass.
The snowsheds are based on those found at Donner pass.
The thread is : building the BNSF Desert & Sierra Sub.
Re: Donner Pass sheds: Are yours built as "slide sheds" (?--I think they are) or "level fall sheds," as at Norden on the SP. The latter are built simply to hold up the deep snowfall over standing trains inside the sheds. The former are built, of course to handle snow-slides.
FWIW, on my own "conjured well but probably will never be built" proto-freelanced road, all on the east side are slide sheds, and those at the top on the west side are level fall sheds. West side slide sheds would be further downhill....
The Donner pass concrete snowsheds were just an inspiration, I didn't try to make a perfect model of a certain type.
At West summit, where westbounds disappear from the scene, I wanted a "supposed" protection against snowdrifts and eventual falling rocks.
The other one standing lonely west of Windy Notch is only a generic snowshed model.
In fact, at Norden for instance, the design is a lot more complex.
I have seen amazing HO snowsheds models on the web. Real beauties.
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Snowman
Well-Known Member
Back Electro-Magnetic Force
Snowman
Well-Known Member
According to D&RGW operating rules, it's true the dynamics should only be used on the first 24 axles in front, so with a five unit consist (lashup) of tunnel motors, the fifth unit should be cut out.
But that's the Rio Grande, lessons won the hard way from experience (wrecks), and other road's rules might vary.
As far as those late sixties/mid-seventies EMD's go (with the original control stand (SD45's)), the correct procedure when cresting a grade was: Drop the throttle progressively down to idle by pulling back on the lever...wait ten seconds, move the lower lever from power to brake (and for the electronics to flip the relays), then move the lever forward again to ramp up the dynamics by raising the prime-mover RPM's back up again, but then bleeding off the excess (decending grade power into the traction motors) and into the toaster grids atop each side. The reason for raising the RPM's was to speed up the fans to draw the heat up and out the top. I read somewhere when EMD's went into dynamic mode, the RPM's automatically jumped up to the equivalent of about RUN 4 (of 8). If the engineer leaned on them even more, and moved the lever further forward, the pitch went higher and higher, and you could clearly hear from trackside as he moved the lever forward for more braking or pulled it back for less.
But that system caused a couple of incidents, where the engineer was pulling up the hill, dropped to idle, but then FORGOT to move the lower lever from power mode into brake mode before raising the engine RPM's again. As you can imagine, it led to a couple of FAST downhill accelerations from the front end already pulling down over the crest...so EMD shifted to a Dash-2 control stand, where the power lever is dropped to idle...10s pause...and then the dynamic lever is brought in instead. Two separate levers, not one.
It may not be obvious, but the head end pulls the train over the crest and downhill again to keep the slack stretched, then gradually dropping to idle and then D-brake to bunch the slack...so the units would pull the train over the crest possibly still in RUN-whatever...and then kick in the dynamics a bit further down the hill. FWIW.
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Snowman
Well-Known Member
Minturn indeed, but RC...parenthesizes IIRC too...as "Minnurn." He was up there often enough talking with railroad men that I'm sure he got it right. But I wouldn't have guessed either.
Snowman
Well-Known Member
And that's a real-world problem in train-handling right there. An engineer moving downhill has to bunch the slack, but the rear end is still stretched. And with real motive power you can do that, but it's more difficult with models. They just don't operate the same way.
Snowman
Well-Known Member
An observation as far as your unit only consists go. They can get up to speed quite quickly and will almost always move both upgrade and downhill both right at the speed limit <cough> of the territory or curve section.
But engineers are like motorists too, and they will often speed--as in "breaking the law" both ways without a train. Unless there is an accident or derailment, none of the higher ups are going to read the "speed tapes" (there is a recorder on one of the front axles), so they can get away with it. When moving power up and downgrade both, there is no "schedule"--they just put the groups together as needed and when needed, so the powers that be don't have a timetable to compare them against.
I have seen many Rio Grande rear end helpers cut off the back end (behind the caboose) at the East Portal of Moffat Tunnel, run around the wye, and then race back downhill at speeds...just a bit over <cough> ...that territory limit of 25mph.
The way I would handle this is post speed signs--all railroads have them--and then...because they apply to all trains, require (such as you do) that a train pass a sign at that given speed, or slower. But then be allowed to accelerate again until the next sign, at which point he should be slowed down again to the speed of that sign.
In the real world, an engineer would pass the sign, and then keep at or below the speed limit until the rear end of the train had also passed the sign...and then speed up again if the territory allowed for it.
Selective compression--our mainlines are just too short--tells me go to the speed sign, then ramp it up as soon as the head end passed the limit sign. In the model world, the train behind you won't care.
Of course, then you may ask "why the speed limits at all?" Curvature, grade, etc. dictate those and almost always running downhill, but with an unloaded set of units moving upgrade, the engineer could ramp them up to illegal speed quite easily too...if he thought he could get away with it.
Most US mainline railroads will have speed limits in different places, and it's usually not only expected...but even required of an engineer that he keep his train right on the limit if he can. This particularly applies to moving downgrade. In order to meet the schedule (even though most operated as extras).
Trains Magazine had an article years ago about "Beaumont Hill" coming out of Bakersfield and heading east. The engineer worked right on the edge to keep his train moving at the maximum allowable speed over the whole district. Twenty Five MPH, in that particular case.
The article read: If he overspeeds it and they catch him, he'll quite likely be fired. Out of work for a month or three until they rehire him again. But if he's overly cautious...twenty four when the speed limit allows twenty five, he won't be fired...but will probably be demoted to running a switcher in a yard for the rest of his career.
Until I read that article all those years ago now, I had no idea what engineers really had to deal with every day. A fine line and a narrow window.
This was all on the Southern Pacific too, and FWIW.
But engineers are like motorists too, and they will often speed--as in "breaking the law" both ways without a train. Unless there is an accident or derailment, none of the higher ups are going to read the "speed tapes" (there is a recorder on one of the front axles), so they can get away with it. When moving power up and downgrade both, there is no "schedule"--they just put the groups together as needed and when needed, so the powers that be don't have a timetable to compare them against.
I have seen many Rio Grande rear end helpers cut off the back end (behind the caboose) at the East Portal of Moffat Tunnel, run around the wye, and then race back downhill at speeds...just a bit over <cough> ...that territory limit of 25mph.
The way I would handle this is post speed signs--all railroads have them--and then...because they apply to all trains, require (such as you do) that a train pass a sign at that given speed, or slower. But then be allowed to accelerate again until the next sign, at which point he should be slowed down again to the speed of that sign.
In the real world, an engineer would pass the sign, and then keep at or below the speed limit until the rear end of the train had also passed the sign...and then speed up again if the territory allowed for it.
Selective compression--our mainlines are just too short--tells me go to the speed sign, then ramp it up as soon as the head end passed the limit sign. In the model world, the train behind you won't care.
Of course, then you may ask "why the speed limits at all?" Curvature, grade, etc. dictate those and almost always running downhill, but with an unloaded set of units moving upgrade, the engineer could ramp them up to illegal speed quite easily too...if he thought he could get away with it.
Most US mainline railroads will have speed limits in different places, and it's usually not only expected...but even required of an engineer that he keep his train right on the limit if he can. This particularly applies to moving downgrade. In order to meet the schedule (even though most operated as extras).
Trains Magazine had an article years ago about "Beaumont Hill" coming out of Bakersfield and heading east. The engineer worked right on the edge to keep his train moving at the maximum allowable speed over the whole district. Twenty Five MPH, in that particular case.
The article read: If he overspeeds it and they catch him, he'll quite likely be fired. Out of work for a month or three until they rehire him again. But if he's overly cautious...twenty four when the speed limit allows twenty five, he won't be fired...but will probably be demoted to running a switcher in a yard for the rest of his career.
Until I read that article all those years ago now, I had no idea what engineers really had to deal with every day. A fine line and a narrow window.
This was all on the Southern Pacific too, and FWIW.
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Snowman
Well-Known Member
Love the twin tunnels and if I had to guess (correct me if I'm wrong...and based on the design of your twin portals--the actual portals) your tunnels are modeled on the twin tunnels at Kyune, UT, on the D&RGW's Soldier Pass grade.
Not a stretch if yours is known as "Dog Soldier Pass."
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Yes, extra braking power for some heavy EB that are scheduled later on at Summit.
Yep Snowman I knew what BEMF meant, but it's still a foggy and mysterious territory for me.
You're correct Snowman, inspiration for the portals came from the ones at Kyune Utah.
But not the summit name since the scenery is freelance with the exception of 2 scenes, Sullivan's curve and Spider bridge.
As you know It refers to the indian warriors in charge of protecting their people.
Concerning the portals I mentioned that in my layout building thread.
I also mentioned the tunnel east of Sullivan's Curve, the inspiration for the portals came from the now gone tunnels at Alray, Cajon Pass.
The snowsheds are based on those found at Donner pass.
The thread is : building the BNSF Desert & Sierra Sub.
Snowman
Well-Known Member
I did not see, I don't think, your original thread, so I will look it up. If I DID see it (and posted there), I lost the connection somehow. My apologies in that case.
Re: Donner Pass sheds: Are yours built as "slide sheds" (?--I think they are) or "level fall sheds," as at Norden on the SP. The latter are built simply to hold up the deep snowfall over standing trains inside the sheds. The former are built, of course to handle snow-slides.
FWIW, on my own "conjured well but probably will never be built" proto-freelanced road, all on the east side are slide sheds, and those at the top on the west side are level fall sheds. West side slide sheds would be further downhill....
Snowman
Well-Known Member
True, they did not. The Cheyenne were an eastern side (of the divide) people, but I'm sure the ghosts of the Dog Soldiers (of the Cheyenne) would be pleased that you remembered them in this manner...in this way.
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Snowman
Well-Known Member
For me too. I'm too long distanced from the practical aspects of this hobby to have anything other than a vague idea. But I did remember the definition.
The thread title is actually "Story of the BNSF Desert &Sierra Sub", my mistake.
The Donner pass concrete snowsheds were just an inspiration, I didn't try to make a perfect model of a certain type.
At West summit, where westbounds disappear from the scene, I wanted a "supposed" protection against snowdrifts and eventual falling rocks.
The other one standing lonely west of Windy Notch is only a generic snowshed model.
In fact, at Norden for instance, the design is a lot more complex.
I have seen amazing HO snowsheds models on the web. Real beauties.
Yes the history of these warriors is uncredible.
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