F-1's Through F-7's

[souleman1948]

Trying to learn a little about the actual engines produced in this series. Was the power plant in all of these set up like today's modern diesel electric locomotives? Is it correct that the diesel engine powered a generator which in turn supplied the electricity for an electric motor which pulled the train? Or, was there ever a model where the diesel engine actually pulled the train? I know it's definitely a "rookie" question but a friend and I were discussing it last night and couldn't come up with a "fer sure" answer. I told him I'd post the question knowing one of you guys would have the answer.
Thanks in advance
Mike

 

[wheeler1963]

Mike, most train engine have a diesel engine that runs a generator to produce electricity to power the traction motors on each axle. There are a few exceptions to this rule.

A few smaller diesel and even gasoline powered engines. Most very small switcher type engines.

There has been experiments with turbines, rockets, batteries and probably a few other things over the years. But the diesel/electric engine is what the manufacturers have always returned to for the most reliable and efficient engines.

 

[jdetray]

Mike -

In one way or another, we are all rookies!

You can often get answers to this sort of question with a quick visit to Wikipedia. In this case, Wikipedia has an article about each of the F-series locomotives. The powerplants were, indeed, all of the diesel-electric type.

- Jeff

 

[souleman1948]

By your reply then I'm figuring all of the F series locos were diesel electric including the F-1's. With that in mind am I right believing the newer GP's are basically the same engine but with a bump out so the engineer can see behind the train easier? I read somewhere that the engineers didn't really like the F locos because they couldn't see the conductor very well when doing switching and the like with them and that's why the bump out on the cabs was put in. So much to learn.......so much to learn!
Mike

 

[jeffrey-wimberly]

There was no F1 that I know of.
The models I know of are as follows:

FT 1939–1945 - 1,350 hp/unit, 555 A units, 541 B units produced.
F2 1946 - 1,350 hp/unit, 74 A units, 30 B units produced.
F3 1945–1949 - 1,500 hp/unit, 1111 A units, 696 B units produced.
F7 1949–1953 - 1,500 hp/unit, 2366 A units, 1483 B units produced.
FP7 1949–1953 - 1,500 hp/unit, 378 A units produced.
F9 1953–1960 - 1,750 hp/unit, 100 A units, 154 B units produced.
FP9 1954–1959 - 1,750 hp/unit, 90 A units produced.
FL9 1956–1960 - 1,750/1,800 hp/unit, 60 A units produced.

All were diesel electric.

I neglected to list the F5 as it was a late model version of the F3 with D27 traction motors, heavier-duty cables and higher capacity traction motor blowers.

 

[souleman1948]

I must have had a touch of dyslexia when I was reading up on them and saw a "1" instead of a "T". Thanks for the post with the correct info.

 

[thaddeusthudpucker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-unit

 

[flh80]

Some of the first locomotives before any of the "F's" were Gas/Elec, and had D/C generators. By the time they switched to diesel they went with A/C alternators to power the trucks. We were slow to have good diesels, as it was a German invention, so it wasn't till after the WWII when they really took off, during the war years Diesel Locomotive production stopped here and we relied on Steam Power and even built more for the war effort, because it was tried and true.

 

[ossroy]

Speaking of WWII and diesel-electric propulsion, our submarines were diesel-electric. They frequently, if not almost exclusively, powered by Fairbanks Morse diesels.

 

[flh80]

Speaking of WWII and diesel-electric propulsion, our submarines were diesel-electric. They frequently, if not almost exclusively, powered by Fairbanks Morse diesels.

Yeah and I think they were "Opposed Cylininders", with the crank in the middle and they used the same engine in their loco's after the war, at least switchers, not sure about the Traimasters etc.

 

[diburning]

There was no F1 that I know of.
The models I know of are as follows:

FT 1939–1945 - 1,350 hp/unit, 555 A units, 541 B units produced.
F2 1946 - 1,350 hp/unit, 74 A units, 30 B units produced.
F3 1945–1949 - 1,500 hp/unit, 1111 A units, 696 B units produced.
F7 1949–1953 - 1,500 hp/unit, 2366 A units, 1483 B units produced.
FP7 1949–1953 - 1,500 hp/unit, 378 A units produced.
F9 1953–1960 - 1,750 hp/unit, 100 A units, 154 B units produced.
FP9 1954–1959 - 1,750 hp/unit, 90 A units produced.
FL9 1956–1960 - 1,750/1,800 hp/unit, 60 A units produced.

All were diesel electric.

I neglected to list the F5 as it was a late model version of the F3 with D27 traction motors, heavier-duty cables and higher capacity traction motor blowers.

There's also the FP10. They were rebuilt from F3s and F7s (most from the GM&O) in by the ICG in Paducah, KY for the MBTA. The portholes were plated over, the chicken wire grills were replaced with stainless steel ones, and dynamic brakes were added.

The FP10 is an ICG designation which does not fit with the EMD designation scheme because they did not have a lengthened frame to accommodate a steam generator (they fit a 480V HEP engine in there somehow).

They didn't do anything with the prime movers so they all put out 1,500 HP.

There are only a few of them left (none of which are still on the MBTA). There are at least two stored on Metro North, and at least one operating on the Adirondack Scenic Railroad. Gold Coast Railway Museum has one painted as SAL 4033.

There's also the FL9AC which was a Metro North experiment to put an EMD 12-710 prime mover (generating 3,000 HP) into an FL9 carbody as well as having AC traction motors. All of the FL9ACs were scrapped by 2005.

There's also the CF7 which sort of doesn't count. ATSF needed more switchers but had a ton of F-units so they rebuilt a ton of F7s into hood units. A bunch of them are still in service on short lines today.

 

[haphall]

Just an FYI on this topic:
The old DreamPlanBuild video series from Model Railroader had a 'supplemental' volume all about the F units. More info than you might want. Cool video too. They come up on ebay occassionally.
Running Bear's list has all the important data though.

 

[swampsavage]

Yeah and I think they were "Opposed Cylininders", with the crank in the middle and they used the same engine in their loco's after the war, at least switchers, not sure about the Traimasters etc.

Not sure about WWII FM engines but the opposed piston ones in later years did not have a crankshaft in the middle. There was one on top and one on the bottom. On compression the top and bottom pistons converged on each other.

 

[jeffrey-wimberly]

As far as I know the opposed piston engines weren't used in locomotives for long. They did well at sea and in the air but not with the grit and grime of the railroads.

 

[swampsavage]

Correct

As far as I know the opposed piston engines weren't used in locomotives for long. They did well at sea and in the air but not with the grit and grime of the railroads.

Big problem with acceptance of Trainmasters was reliability. I worked for FM in 1964 when they announced to the world they had developed an OP engine with 1000HP per cylinder. They had a 6 cyl prototype set up in the corner of one of the shops. When they started her up it was deafening. She was pretty all painted in a blue/green against the whitewashed wall. Emitted a high pitched raspy sound as I recall. I believe it was developed for pumping stations to convert seawater into fresh.

I also did a quick Google about FM's in submarine use. Found many other mfg's for most of the WWII boats with FM seeming to enter the fray in 1944. Even some earlier ones powered by gas engines.

BTW...even though FM was long out of the loco business by 1964 they still referred to one of the larger buildings in the Beloit plant as the "loco shop".

 

[souleman1948]

Guys, this is great stuff and so appreciated. I know I'll be very happy when the day comes that I can actually see one of my models get around the layout that I am putting together. On the other hand I am thoroughly enjoying learning all this stuff about trains. I'm not sure which will be more fun, the learning or the watching of my trains going around in circles. Thanks again for all of your input.
Mike

 

[jbaakko]

True that nearly every North American diesel was diesel-electric. However there are a few experiments with diesel-hydralic, which would be a direct drive system, similar to automobiles. Namely the "infamous" Krauss-Maffei ML-4000's that Southern Pacific and D&RGW owned. However ALCO experimented, releasing the DH643:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALCO_DH643

EDIT: It should be noted that while the diesel-hydraulic was an experiment for NA railroads, they're quite popular in Europe, where units are not run 24/7 like they are here.

 

[jeffrey-wimberly]

I'm glad we could all help. You can keep a listing of all the pertinent facts about the type of locos you're running. That way you can put them together with other locos that were around at the time. In my case I've been known to run SD40-2's and SD45's with F7's. This was actually done on the Kansas City Southern (KCS) until sometime in the late 80's. The F units had been converted to slugs and got their electrical power from the locos they were coupled to. This saved fuel and provided extra pulling power for those long slow freights.