Easing into DCC?

[DairyStateDad]

As I wrap up my layout design and get ready to lay track, I'm having to face a decision I've been putting off: DCC or DC/Cab control?

I understand how each one works, and I know the advantages of DCC -- simpler wiring and easier individual loco control.

The big block is because of the initial investment.

I'm starting almost completely from scratch on an HO layout. I have two old locomotives that I'm not even sure will run any more; they're both regular DC. I have on order a new DCC-ready (not installed) loco.

At this point I have no power source at all.

Motive power is likely/certain to be all smaller steam. Sound is nice, but I doubt it will be installed right away, if ever.

I'm probably looking at some form of manual/mechanical switch controls rather than machines -- so I don't think I'll ever need a power source for switch machines.

The layout will be small (8 feet by 12 feet with center operating area accessed by a small lift-out). Once trains get running, I expect that I will mostly run them myself. So I don't know that I'll often literally run more than one train at a time -- at most, I suppose, maybe two (I've only got two hands ). (I know, though, that if I go with DC I'll want to have it well divided into cab-control blocks so that power only goes to the engine I want it to go to.)

I actually expect this to be my "last" layout as well as my first one (first since High School, that is). I've approached it as one that I want to be able to develop over the long term and I've made it sectional so if we move it can come with me.

I suppose, 3 or 4 years from now, I could be at the point where I would be running 5 or 6 trains at a time at most, assuming that many or more guest operators.

So, before much longer, I know I really need to purchase a basic power unit. On my radar screen are everything from these two DCC options...

1) http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Bachmann-44902-EZ-Command-DCC-Control-System-p/bac-44902.htm

2) http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Digitrax-Zephyr-Xtra-Complete-DCC-Starter-System-w-p/dig-zepx.htm

...to this as a low-cost-entry-level DC unit that perhaps could be repurposed somewhere down the road:

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/MRC-Railpower-Model-Train-Powerpack-p/mrc-aa370.htm

I was at a show in June where the very friendly Digitrax sales guy made the argument that the entry level cost wasn't that much more than DC when one takes into account the investment in Atlas selector switch boxes required to implement a proper system of blocks. I haven't subjected that argument to a close analysis to see if it really holds up.

If I could really get a relatively inexpensive and acceptable quality DCC unit (does the Bachmann 44902 item linked above qualify?), and if it had the ability to continue being used should the system grow over time, I would probably be able to get off the dime and make my decision in favor of DCC.

For now, though, I remain stuck. Advice welcome...

 

[Espeefan]

My advice: forget the Bachmann system consider between the Digitrax Zephyr or the NCE Powercab. Others may bring up the MRC systems and the newer ones are OK. I just tend to gravitate to those two manufacturers as I have owned systems from both. If you are going to run one train alone and never do anything with sound, then DC may be the easiest way to go. Block wiring and reverse loops don't necessarily go away with DCC. If you have expansion plans as you say, I would bite the bullet and do it now as opposed to converting a ot of stuff later. Proper planning is important!

 

[DairyStateDad]

Block wiring and reverse loops don't necessarily go away with DCC.

OK, I get that reverse loop wiring is necessary, but I thought that block wiring wasn't necessary with DCC, or at least not to the extent it's needed for DC cab control.

Appreciate the heads up on NCE starter option.

From the DairyStatePhone

 

[Hutch]

Other than a reverse section I don't have any blocks and I don't see a need for them to run trains with DCC. Now signaling is another matter and you still might need blocks for that depending on what you want to do. Maybe that is what Espeefan is eluding to?

 

[Iron Horseman]

, but I thought that block wiring wasn't necessary with DCC,

You are right. DCC does not need control blocks. What the poster might be referring to is power districts or maybe blocks for signalling / automated computer control. From the size of your layout and the description you provided I do not think you will need power districts. You did not indicate any desire for signalling, so that is probably a moot point.

Just FYI power districts are used in DCC wiring systems to provide more power to the layout and to isolate a short circuits. On a large layout it is annoying for a yard operator shorting out often and frequently to cause the entire mainline to shut down. Putting a yard on a separate circuit (power district or block if you will) from the main line prevents this. Our club had 7 power districts just for this reason. A short in any one of the three yards did not stop everyone else. Likewise a short on the main on one side of the club room did not stop trains on the main on the other side. The club also needed power districts because we would have 12-15 trains running at a time which demanded more power than a single DCC power supply could provide. So we got our 35 AMPs distributed through seven 5 AMP power supplies.

A unit you might want to consider is the brand new NCE Twin. It tries to fill the gap between the Bachmann unit and NCEs powercab, and compete with the Digitrax Zephyr. Unfortunately I cannot "recommend" it just yet because NCE was supposed to send a demo unit that I could review for folks with questions just like yours. They have not done so yet, so all I really know about it is what I've read. I've seen them listed for $125.
http://www.ncecorporation.com/extras/manuals/systems/Twin/DCC Twin Manual.pdf

 

[Sirfoldalot]

Wow, Thanks for the DCC lesson. Up to this point I had no idea about how DCC worked.
I am losing retention faster than I can refill the noodle.
In the last 35 years I Have forgot ton everything HO and I used to build my own track and power packs.
You may have just jarred me awake enough to actually stick my toe in the water again.
Have been spending my time on a neighbors 20 acre 7.5 inch gauge railroad, but would like to return to some modeling again.

When an ad says: DCC READY .. Does that mean that I can just place it on the track and program?

 

[DairyStateDad]

My understanding is "DCC ready" means that it does NOT have a DCC decoder, but is set up to plug one in pretty easily.

 

[Bruette]

If I were you I would call model train stuff, early on week days is the best time. Ask to speak to the HO manager and I am sure he will give you some advice you can use. You can also email them and they will pass your email on to the HO guys. They have great service and support. It's always a good idea to develop a relationship with your supplier. They are my local shop and when I go, I get there when they open on a week day and usually I am the only customer in the store.

Good luck to you,
Louis

 

[DairyStateDad]

If I were you I would call model train stuff, early on week days is the best time. Ask to speak to the HO manager and I am sure he will give you some advice you can use. Louis

.

Thanks, Louis -- I will follow up on that. As it happened, I gave MTS a try today -- ordered a new loco from them.

If I order something else between now and mid-August, I think I will choose the "pick up at the store" option, as I will be driving to PA for a week, and it would be easy to pass through their location.

 

[DairyStateDad]

Another "what if" question -- If I were to get an inexpensive DC powerpack now just to get started, and later upgrade my locos and electrical for DCC, could the old DC powerpack (such as the MRC Railpower 1370) then be put to use as the power/control for building interior lights, especially if those lights use LEDs?

 

[bwells]

It seems you have an understanding of block control so what I did was to use Cab A as DC and Cab B as DCC. A lot of DPDT switches but I have a lot of DC engines that I will never convert. I do use the NCE Power Cab and so far it has worked great as long as I remember which loco is DC or DCC. It really is a no brainier that you will eventually go to DCC but the transition is the question and how to do it so do both.

 

[DairyStateDad]

I do find that idea appealing - - Have you come up with any kind of fail-safe system to prevent a loco from accidentally bridging a block set to DC and one set to DCC? I have read that that is something to avoid...

From the DairyStatePhone

 

[Cjcrescent]

DSDad,

Let me tell you a story, specifically one about why I went to DCC. I'm an operator. Meaning that I prefer to have formal op sessions with my friends, I don't really like to run trains by myself unless I'm testing locos, and was looking forward to when I could be having some on my latest layout. My latest, (#8), is to be my last layout, and is a triple decker. It is 17'x23'.

When I was first designing my layout, DCC was relatively new, and I wasn't even considering it as a power option. But since I love to run with more than 2-3 people, the DC controls would have involved many multilayered rotary switches to assign power to a block for the appropriate operator. I've wired some before and the wiring wasn't the problem, but the cost was. In rotary switches alone, the cost would have been IIRC over $3000 and that didn't take into consideration the price of the wire needed to connect all of this together.

I then started figuring out what the total cost of electrical items would be for this layout and again if I remember correctly the total cost, building lights, switches for the trains, buildings, wires, power sources etc, would have been on the high side of $5000! All of this, just to support 5 operators.

I then started figuring what the price would be for a complete DCC install. At the time, late 1990's, a relatively robust DCC system was around $350. Since just about everyone in the area used Digitrax, I used their prices as the estimate. (Hint: If there are other modelers in the area, find out what system they use and go with it, as you will have a built in database of folks who may have had to deal with any problem you have, and can solve it easier than a call to tech support. But do try and test as many of the varying systems available and see what is best for you.) Since I run mostly steam, and the only diesels I have are 1st generation, I could get by with using just 2 function decoders for my fleet. At the time, 2-function decoders were $25 dollars each. Now they are around $15. But I figured that with 25 locos the decoders would cost me $625. I now have 35 locos and while they haven't all been converted to DCC yet, I do have the decoders. Actual decoder cost so far is $525.

So now I was up to a total of $925. Wire would cost me about $150. Extra plugin panels for the operators, would be $17 a piece, so the price for 7 would be $119.

The gist is that I did go with DCC, Digitrax. I have upgraded from a Empire Builder to a Super Chief. Total cost that I have spent on electrical to date is just $1369! In this total I also have added in 4 power districts, and auto reversers for 2 return loops and 3 turntables. The boards to accomplish this with were given to me as gifts.

While this may seem like an extreme example, the savings shown aren't. I can support now up to 10 operators without anymore wiring than was required for 1. Your layout is smaller and not as sophisticated, but the savings with going to DCC will probably be percentage wise in the same ballpark.

 

[scroggin]

Another "what if" question -- If I were to get an inexpensive DC powerpack now just to get started, and later upgrade my locos and electrical for DCC, could the old DC powerpack (such as the MRC Railpower 1370) then be put to use as the power/control for building interior lights, especially if those lights use LEDs?

Yes it could, LED's of course need wiring with a resistor to prevent burnouts from over voltage.

As to whether its best to go DCC or DC at the start because of cost. I would say there is no better time to go DCC than right from the start, its a lot easier than trying to convert over once you have a lot of DC locomotives. It makes wiring a lot easier and the cost difference between DC and DCC is often less than the cost of adding a decoder later.

 

[DairyStateDad]

Well, I am just about convinced.

For the very, very, very short term, I will probably acquire a small, low-cost ($30 or less) DC pack, just to be able to test out my new loco when it arrives, see if the old ones even work any more, and to hook up to the initial tracks I lay just to run a train around the loop when that's completed. But I will sign an oath in DairyStateBlood not to wire up for block control and instead to put my serious $$$ into a DCC start-up. Many thanks to all for the feedback and helping me think through this question, as well as for the specific recommendations on product lines and courses of action.

 

[Burlington Bob]

A very wise decision, Grasshopper! Since getting back into the hobby after an absence of more than 20 years, I made the choice to go with DCC right from the start. It costs a little more for a decoder along with the loco so I see just a small increase in costs with each purchase. Compare this to the alternative...............a dozen or more locos needing decoders to be purchased and installed along with the money for a DCC system and the need to install and familiarize myself with it before using it.

Instead, I buy decoders as I buy locos (11 so far) and I started with a Digitrax Zephyr Xtra. I don't have a layout yet but I do have a small setup to test and run my trains. This also gives me a chance to program CV's and learn the in and outs of my setup. This way, when I do start my layout, I will be pretty much up to speed and should not have a steep learning curve to overcome. I feel this lessens the hurdles that I would otherwise face and should add to my overall enjoyment of this great hobby.

 

[OldGuy]

Hmm, I'm going through the same dilemma. Except, I already have several older DC power packs and plan on using them with my older engines so I can test my trackwork as it goes in. Yes, I will run large bus wires, use DCC-friendly turnouts, etc. The only reversing loop issues will be with the fiddle yard turntables as my layout will be a point to point double deck layout.

Then, when ready, I'll just drop in (yea right) a DCC system, cutting in boosters, and whatnot. At least that's the plan. I do hope to have other operators for TT & TO operation, but I don't know of any other model railroaders in the area.

Love the conversation so far.

 

[trailrider]

As I've posted before, I've been in the hobby off-and-on for about 60 years! At last count, I have over fifty DC locomotives. When I began building my present layout, I did want sound for a very few locomotives, but there is no way I will ever convert most of my motive power to DCC/Sound! I set my layout (14' x 14' folded dogbone with lots of yard and sidings) up with DC blocks, but wired with heavy enough wiring to enable me to run DCC. As I mostly operate alone, and run one train at a time (can't walk and chew gum simultaneously, you know), I elected to go with a MRC Tech 6 6.0. This only can run a total of 6 addresses, but also can run straight DC with the press of a button. But, as I said, being afraid of burning out some no-longer-in-production coreless motors in my steam locomotives, I installed a DPDT toggle on my control panel, which connects to either the DCC Tech 6 or a MRC DC power pack. So far, this seems to be a satisfactory arrangement. I have looked at a basic NCE DCC outfit, but really don't see the need for it...at present.

 

[Greg@mnrr]

DairyStateDad:

Your old power pack could be used for powering building lights, signals, etc. But, Radio Shack has inexpensive transformers that sell for around $10 which will work great for lighting purposes and especially for LED's. I used several on my layout and one Radio Shack transformer powers the 20+ Tortoise switch machines on my Milwaukee Northern Railroad.

Back to the DCC questions.

I use Digitrax and with a smaller layout I would recommend Digitrax's Zephyr system as a starter and when ready to expand, add a Digitrax DT402 throttle which will allow you to run two additional loco's or trains. Two of our club members have the Zephyr and have been very happy with the system, others have the Digitrax DB150 or NCE systems. Forget Bachmann's DCC offerings.

I personally have a Digitrax DB150 powered by a 5 amp transformer and am using two Digitrax UT2 throttles, two Digitrax UT4 throttles, one UT300 and one UT402 throttles. If doing it all over, I would have two UT402 throttles which would control four loco's or trains - plenty of loco control for switching and running trains.

Looking ahead on your layout, I would forget conventional block wiring. (Have you check the current prices for copper hookup wire). DCC is so easy to run several locos without flipping selector switches, installing complex wiring and installing control panels. And, a DCC layout is easy to wire.

Also, compare the cost of a MRC 1370 power pack ($50) to the cost of Digitrax Zephyr which can be found on sale at approximately $150.

My 2 cents worth of advise.

Thanks.

Greg

PS:
DCC loco's need not be expensive. I recently purchased at a train show a Proto 2000 C&NW GP9 with DCC and sound for $140. The factory sound was upgraded. The loco was part of an estate and had few running hours and looked new.

 

[jdetray]

Just another personal story to add ...

I built my small layout and operated it briefly with a $10 used DC power pack and a Bachmann engine that runs on either DC or DCC. At the time, I was not confident of my track laying skills and did not want to invest in a more elaborate control system until I was sure my trackwork was dependable.

When I was satisfied with my trackwork, I bought a NCE Power Cab. I simply disconnected the two track wires from the DC power pack and connected them to the Power Cab. And that quickly, I was running DCC.

I firmly believe that if you will EVER want to have more than one locomotive on your layout at the same time, it makes sense to plan on DCC from the start. Being able to avoid the extra expense and more complicated wiring needed for multiple cab control made DCC an easy decision for me.

If I had accumulated a large number of DC-only engines, then the decision would have been more difficult, of course.

- Jeff