Early Conrail (1977-1981ish) rolling stock...?

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jwrCR76

Member
I'm new to the game, and so know little about what is 'correct' to a specific era or road name, and I'm trying to build an early (pre-Blue paint) Conrail freight train. I want it to be a mess of inherited equipment along with non-rail company owned cars, and would prefer everything behind the locos to have been 'possible' for the time frame. Ignoring the blue engines (which are for another train project), is there anything shown in the pics that screams "No way in 1978 and not behind a CR loco!"?? Thanks in advance for any and all constructive comments. :cool:






 
looks good other then the cattle cars and the graffiti painted cars.

also conrail started painting things blue before the end of 76.
 
Personally, I wouldn't worry too much, and just enjoy what you have.

However, if it really bothers you, then things to look for:

1) they (meaning most railroads) started removing high ladders and running boards (roofwalks) on boxcars. All of them weren't gone yet, but they were less common. If you remove about half of them, you're doing pretty good. Pull them off, apply some green Squadron putty, and sand and file smooth. Weather the roof, and there you go.
2) 40' boxcars were starting to be phased out, because the gross rail weight limit was raised a few years before, so the older, shorter cars were beginning to be phased out and scrapped.
3) I think live stock cars were not used very much after the late 1960s, but several roads kept them for special loads, so you'll have to do some looking around.
4) The 1970s saw an introduction in exterior post boxcars that replaced the smooth side boxcars of previous years. Railbox was the leasing company which helped usher in these new designs.
5) Unibody tank cars (modern tank cars without a platform around the perimeter of the car) were becoming more common, and the older design less common.
6) Roller bearing trucks were replacing and being replaced on older cars, since friction journal trucks were being regulated out of railroad liveries. That NYC gondola you have in the last picture has friction journal trucks. Now, you can still keep them, but just something to be aware of.

The big problem I see with most rolling stock now is that often incorrect paint schemes are applied to a model. For example, the error could be in the road number, or it could be that the herald design (logo) was not done on a car of that type, or that railroad didn't have any of that type of car at all. I have two Athearn 50' plug door boxcars, based on a Pacific Car and Foundry design, but painted for the Southern Railway. The Southern was pretty exclusive with Pullman Standard cars, especially the Bessemer plant, but I have not found any photographic evidence to show me that the Southern had the prototype in question in their roster. This error is called a foobie, and when you really look around, you'll find them everywhere, to varying degrees, and, if you are a purist, it will bother you.

We must remember at times that we are not always able to have 100% accuracy, as the model itself is a representation of a real thing. I think that instead of striving for that unobtainable, we can take an artistic license in what we make, since in the end, it is your railroad.

If you look at the stenciling on the car, you can tell the era rather quickly.

If you face a freight car on one side, look at the lower left corner. There are three lines (CAPY, LD LMT, LT WT) with weights (in pounds) next to them. After the early 1980s, the railroads stopped applying CAPY and its weight next to it. As cars were reweighed and shopped, the CAPY information was painted over. CAPY refers to capacity weight, LD LMT refers to the total weight of the car fully loaded, and the LT WT is the weight of an empty car.

Next to this data is the AAR designation, which is usually a two or three letter designation. XM, XL, XML, XP, etc. were for most boxcars, while covered hoppers were LO, gons were G, GB, GBS, etc., flats could be F, FBS, FB, etc. Open hoppers could be HT, HTS, etc. And so on. Below is the date either "NEW 5-71" or "MC 6-73". New in May of 1971 is when the car was built. MC is the shop code for McComb Shops (Illinois Central Gulf Railroad) in June 1973. The car, when shopped, could have been just painted, or completely rebuilt, or upgraded with new brakes or trucks, or just reweighed. Obviously, if the date code is NEW 9-89, then the car is too new for 1978.

Somewhere on the side of the car may be a ACI plate, which is a rectangular colored bar code which allowed for optical readers to scan the car, and enter it into the system. The technology was first fielded in 1967, so anything built or painted between 1967 and mid-late 1978 would have these plates, including locomotives and cabooses. I will note, though, I can't find consistent evidence that the GM&O put ACI plates on their cabooses, but they did on their locomotives, on the stancions along the long hood. The ACI plate is left off a lot, and I'm not sure if it is because it requires the model railroad manufacturer to use more colors in their paint, or if they are working from some picture that didn't have an ACI plate, or if they just omitted it so that the car could be used earlier or later than that 11 year window.

On the lower right side, you'll find or should find dimensional data (the size of the car, inside and out) and there may be a black square with white trim. This black square is called a COTS/Lube plate, and it contains information about when the car was lubed, as well as other maintenance performed. When the COTS plates were first put on cars, they were either one large square or a small square. In the early and mid-1970s they needed more space, so the COTS plates had two sections, or divided into two plates if on a car with exterior posts. In the early 1980s, COTS plates became smaller, and had 3 sections on them, and often included the build date of the car. If you don't see a "NEW" date on the left next to the CAPY line or only see LD LMT and LT WT on the left and a 3 panel COTS plate on the right, then the car was painted after the early 1980s, and is too new for your era.

Photographs and information from the historical society will help you in your quest of not only picking appropriate rolling stock, but also in modeling your own rolling stock.
 


Thanks for the excellent info thus far, guys. My head is spinning already! :) The pieces I have gathered so far were all (expect two pieces) sourced used on eBay for cheap, in lots, so I have a few more not shown that won't be used. All that end up not working for the trains intended will just go back on eBay as a single lot...so no worries if we rule out a whole bunch of them. :)

looks good other then the cattle cars and the graffiti painted cars.

also conrail started painting things blue before the end of 76.

I see two votes down on the stock/cattle car, and I kinda thought that one was looking a bit out of place, even if I had no specific reason for it. :)

But IG- why would you say no to the graffiti? Was CR militant about removing it or...? Having lived my first 20 years in the NYC/Jersey City/Hoboken/Newark areas, the stuff was everywhere and on everything in the late 70s.

You can find many patched rolling stock cars on the conrail historical society website found here http://thecrhs.org/ConrailEquipment/FreightCars

Conrail Cyclopedia also has a section to look through http://crcyc.railfan.net/crrs/crrsindex.html

Two things to note, conrail didn't patch every car, and 40ft gondolas/boxcars were rarely used

Great links, thanks! I did notice CR used many 'ex(road name) cars 'as acquired' in earlier photos. Certainly some may have been spotted this way while empty and en route to a shop for paint, but as I've seen photos of locos still black and in Penn Central livery hauling freight cars as late a 1981, I figured such a relic would be appropriate enough for a 1978 time frame, whether a loco or a roller. As to 40 footers, the CRHS site states "Although not a major part of Conrail's freight car fleet, some 40' cars from predecessor roads did soldier on in revenue service until the mid to late-1980s." Would you say that's accurate, and if so, perhaps a couple thrown in among longer units would still be 'correct'...?


What types of locomotives are you considering to use?

That's wide open at the moment- I've gathered none for this train so far. I want to go with a gruesome mixing of liveries and manufacturer models, so long as all are units that were "very possible". I'm not religious on exact road numbers, but if CR ran an ex-EL GP38 in its EL paint with "CR" initials stenciled onto it for any amount of time, then that's something I like representing. If EL never ran a GP38, but such got made in N scale anyway, then I'd rather not use it. You may have noticed I have an Alco RSD-15 in Conrail blue in that first photo. In online research, I found CR likely never ran one in blue at all, deciding they were unreliable very quickly, so they were converted to MT-6 slugs. As such, my Alco will either be repainted into its prior owner's livery,weathered and left on a siding in the layout as a "to be converted" orphan, or I'll get ambitious and try converting it into a CR blue MT-6 and use it in an early-1980s train at some point...or it'll just get resold or tossed in a cabinet. Nothing is set in stone this early. :) But here's a pair of photos that shows the type of "WTF?" equipment I'd like to emulate-



Trey- Wow, you gave me a headache! Talk about specificity! Great stuff and all that will definitely help big when I start weathering and altering these things. As you said- if 100% accurate is impossible, fine, but 'close as possible' would be nice. It may be "my" layout, but it'd be nicer to have folks commenting on surprising little things I got right than a long list of what is blatantly wrong when compared to the real world that was.

Thanks again, guys...more reading to do!

John
 
Testing...

Hmm..odd. I posted a lengthy reply but received a message saying it would await mod approval....but it's been over 18 hours and it still hasn't appeared. Gawd, I'd hate having the retype it!! ;)
 
Testing...

Hmm..odd. I posted a lengthy reply but received a message saying it would await mod approval....but it's been over 18 hours and it still hasn't appeared. Gawd, I'd hate having the retype it!! ;)

Hmm! 18 hrs, looks like no one minding the store :D
Actually the indicator for the Mods is quite small and easy to miss. The software stopped your post, I have an idea of why and as your post numbers increase it most likely won't happen again :rolleyes:

Cheers
Willis
 
I was an engineer on the NYC Harlem Division until 1981. The only thing I can remember being painted on that division was a few FL-9's passenger locos in blue and gold, everything else was left PC black.

George
 
Thanks George. I recall hanging out at the top of the 14th Street Viaduct in Hoboken watching CR freight crawl by on the tracks now used by the Light Rail...and I specifically recall seeing only BLACK locos, no blue ones...yet the black ones DID have full Conrail markings including the can opener. But all the photos I find now are either black with "CR" initials added only, or blue with full markings. Am I just remembering wrong or do you recall black with full logos, too?
 


Why not check the railroads that made up Conrail on April 1, 1976 - Reading, Jersey Central, Lehigh & Hudson River (cabooses), Ironton (cabooses), Penn Central, Lehigh Valley, & Erie Lackawanna. There are also thick "Freight Car Guides" available that list all railroads & their rolling stock. They are available at swap meets & auction sites. If I recall, cabooses were the first rolling stock to be painted blue in any number.
 
Sorry to give you a headache. I've been doing a lot of decaling for the past few months, and as I've used RTR cars for a guide (in placement only), I've found a lot of little things like the wrong dimensional data or weights for the car, lack of COTS plates and ACI plates and even wheel inspection dots on cars that should have had them.

I've found pictures to be the most reliable, if not for the dating purpose, but also determining something that was a practice, or usual.
 
Well JWR I think this is the best bet. http://thecrhs.org/home The Conrail Historical Society. It's about what I thought. In the late 70's some were still in their original paint scheme, some where painted black and some had been painted CR blue. I think by late 1981 they were all painted blue. I try to model some of my layout in the late 70's NYC, NH area as in the below photo. George
 
I found an excellent site for railroad photos. You can sort by location etc. than everything is sorted by date. Pick a location in NJ and you can see what was painted in CR blue at the time. I chose where I worked and there were still a lot of CR black locos around in 1980. Here's the site. George

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/default.aspx
 
You could always 'justify' the stock cars, by painting them grey and assigning MOW numbers to them, and putting fuel/oil barrels inside. Some roads used them as such, cuz they obviously 'breate' better than a closed boxcar.
 
Ah cool, i model the same time period! I focus more on the electric end, i have a few E44s, E33s, and GG1s (though only amtrak Gs for now).

The locomotives i'd replace. They're OK, but depending on your location preference, locomotives like the GP20 might not be for you (they typically hung out on the western end, i've seen photos of them working on L&N trains).

The first set of Conrail hoppers should pass for the early years, as would the ACF one. The only one i have questions about is the one with the Recycling logos on the side.

Both your Conrail boxcars are just fine. The are the insulated type, i have a few but i can't remember the class type. Some of them even came in a Yellow and Black paint job, but these were leased and they soon went back to PFE.

The stock cars are REALLY hit or miss. Stock cares DID persist, but they weren't common. They usually stuck around the head end of the train, but were probably privately owned. I have an Trains magazine article from 1974 about a young kid riding in the cab of an MUed locomotive with his dad to keep an eye on the "shipment".

The 40-foot cars and the other PRR cars don't look like they'd fit. even the Lehigh Valley car was probably on its way out, i don't think that would have made it to Conrail. the Caboose and the gondola also look rough, even though they technically could fit in, i'd replace them.
 
But IG- why would you say no to the graffiti? Was CR militant about removing it or...? Having lived my first 20 years in the NYC/Jersey City/Hoboken/Newark areas, the stuff was everywhere and on everything in the late 70s.

well, you've seen it first hand, but from the photos in my books, graffiti wasn't as prevalent or noticeable. Many of the trains in my books seem to have only very light tags, if any. Unless i just don't even notice anymore!

That's wide open at the moment- I've gathered none for this train so far. I want to go with a gruesome mixing of liveries and manufacturer models, so long as all are units that were "very possible". I'm not religious on exact road numbers, but if CR ran an ex-EL GP38 in its EL paint with "CR" initials stenciled onto it for any amount of time, then that's something I like representing. If EL never ran a GP38, but such got made in N scale anyway, then I'd rather not use it.

well, the EL never did have any GP38s (or gp38-2s), but they did have plenty of GP35s that went to conrail.

Nothing is set in stone this early. :) But here's a pair of photos that shows the type of "WTF?" equipment I'd like to emulate-
Thanks again, guys...more reading to do!

John

Well, the U25B i think they sold like that at one time, but an SDP45 would be a tricky project!

yet the black ones DID have full Conrail markings including the can opener. But all the photos I find now are either black with "CR" initials added only, or blue with full markings. Am I just remembering wrong or do you recall black with full logos, too?

I think you're remembering wrong. While its possible you did see something like that, the only time i remember a can-opener on black is on some MoW cranes.


I figure you might like some of my patch jobs-

4465 actually kept its PRR numbers all the way to Amtrak.

earlyconrailroster81210z.jpg


4457 is a more boring PC patch out

earlyconrailroster81210b.jpg


This SD45 was never repainted and was retired this way

earlyconrailroster81210.jpg


Not sure if these count as Patch jobs, but there were many cases were MU cars kept the old Railroad hearalds, along with the state commuter agencies. many of these units remained painted in this fashion until the commuter agency took full control (in this case, SEPTA in 1984).

Former Penn Central Silverliner IIIs

silverlineriiidecaled12.jpg


Former Reading Silverliner IV. there is at least one Silverliner IV car with a Conrail logo with the Septa meatball.

lastweekofseptember2010.jpg
 






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