Digitrax Super Empire Builder. Good unit?

[Big Windy]

I have just started getting back into MR again and have a chance to buy a used Super Empire Builder for $175.00. I just missed buying one w/radio control for $150.00. Are these problem units? It seems odd that I dont see any other DCC units used. Are these decent units to get into DCC otherwise? Something better? Thanks

 

[Selector]

I have had one with zero problems since late 2005.

The SEB is one of Digitrax's older systems. It is intended to supply up to 5 amps to the rails with the right power supply. [Note: if the system comes with a power supply, that alone is worth about $50! The SEB is not normally sold with a power supply...it is an extra expense.]

The SEB has no way of quizzing the decoder for its current settings as more modern systems do. So, you will have to keep an EXEL spreadsheet or a handraulic list of the settings for your decoders.

There is no provision for a programming track output. The DB150 base station is meant to operate at full voltage to the rails, so most of your programming will be on the layout using Ops Mode (or 'programming on the main'). Because of the system's oomph, there isn't a decoder out there that won't whimper and do what it commands when you input values or assign addresses to the decoders.

The SEB comes with a single DT400 hand paddle-type throttle, but those throttles have two encoder knobs for running two locomotives by simply reaching for either knob. A DT400 throttle is worth over $200 new (I think), so a used one might be worth $80-100, as a guess. Make sure the system you are interested in comes with at least a DT400 throttle or you will have to get one.

 

[stevelton]

I have the SEB, and love it. The guys in our group would rather have the super cheif, just to have the ability to read decoder, but at the time it cost more than I had...

I will end up buying a super cheif, and using it as the command station, and the SEB as a booster.

Right now Im saving to buy the UR91 and some radio throttles.

Steven

 

[Espeefan]

I had one for a number of years, and had no issues with it. The only thing I grew to dislike was the inability to read back cv's, but I managed OK without that for a while.

 

[saronaterry]

I've had an SEB for years and love it. I have a buddy that installs and programs decoders, so no big deal for me. I also use UT1 and UT2 throttles. My layout is kinda big ( 30 x42) and found the SEB handles it all. I do have NCE decoders in all my engines. That's what my buddy prefers. The price is good, if you get a power supply AND the DT400. Like Crandell said. When I bought mine I had to add a power supply , UP5 panels and a UT throttle, ended up spending around $400. Still a deal.

 

[Psapple83]

I don't mean to resurrect this thread- but with the SEB- what does the "blind programming" look like? is it difficult? When I read about CV programming, it seems like something I'm not going to get deep into, or maybe something I don't fully understand.

Are the default Decoder CV values undesirable in most cases?
Is it mostly sound that gets changed with CV's? Or would one want to do alot of speed/acceleration programming as well?

In the SEB manual, it says this:
Enter Program Mode by pressing the PROG Key . The display will show the last CV and CV Value you programmed.

Is that the case every time you enter the CV number you are about to program?

 

[bnsf971]

I don't mean to resurrect this thread- but with the SEB- what does the "blind programming" look like? is it difficult? When I read about CV programming, it seems like something I'm not going to get deep into, or maybe something I don't fully understand.

Are the default Decoder CV values undesirable in most cases?
Is it mostly sound that gets changed with CV's? Or would one want to do alot of speed/acceleration programming as well?

In the SEB manual, it says this:
Enter Program Mode by pressing the PROG Key . The display will show the last CV and CV Value you programmed.

Is that the case every time you enter the CV number you are about to program?

When you push the "prog" button, you will be able to scroll through the different programming methods by repeatedly pushing that button. You will get four choices. I usually use ops mode, and you can select the engine you want to program by pushing the prog button until the engine number shows up on your throttle. (YMMV, I am using a DT402 throttle) You change the CV you want to change with the left knob, and change the value of the cv with the right knob. When you get the value you want, push the enter button. When you're done, push the exit button.
You can change a lot of things about the decoder using this, starting with the engine number, acceleration and deceleration, lighting effect, and what the decoder will do if it is placed on DC track.
Sound value changes depend on what sound decoder you have, and you can change sound volumes, and what the sounds do when you operate the engine. I can get pretty much as technical as you would like as far as what does what, just let me know how "deep" you want to go. Just don't ask me about hexadecimal settings...

 

[Psapple83]

When you push the "prog" button, you will be able to scroll through the different programming methods by repeatedly pushing that button. You will get four choices. I usually use ops mode, and you can select the engine you want to program by pushing the prog button until the engine number shows up on your throttle. (YMMV, I am using a DT402 throttle) You change the CV you want to change with the left knob, and change the value of the cv with the right knob. When you get the value you want, push the enter button. When you're done, push the exit button.
You can change a lot of things about the decoder using this, starting with the engine number, acceleration and deceleration, lighting effect, and what the decoder will do if it is placed on DC track.
Sound value changes depend on what sound decoder you have, and you can change sound volumes, and what the sounds do when you operate the engine. I can get pretty much as technical as you would like as far as what does what, just let me know how "deep" you want to go. Just don't ask me about hexadecimal settings...

So essentially what you are saying is- if I don't have CV readback, I just have to keep programming a certain value until its to my liking?
From what you are saying- once I set the CV value, I never plan on changing it once I like where its at.

I am just really having a hard time seeing the purpose of spending the (extra $100 from where I've found it) on the Super Chief if I don't plan on doing a ton of programming, and I don't need a programming track.
Come to think of it, I am planning on doing Digitrax Pr3 with JMRI on my mac relatively quickly after I would buy a system- therefore (from my understanding) voiding the purpose of CV readback on the chief.

That said, do you think the SEB will work for me?

 

[Selector]

Yes, that's it. You can't poll an unknown decoder and ask it what its programmed value is for (pick a CV). I don't miss that capability because the DB150 is all I have ever used. After a while you get a history with the various decoder types and you know which CV's in each you are likely to mainipulate most often, so you remember the narrow range of values you should play with. That's how it works for me. I know that a Tsunami steam decoder's chuff rate is accessed in CV116 and that a value near 160 will work reasonably well for most locos, but with individual tweeking once the motor has warmed a bit and is running smoothly. I don't need to hear a voice telling me I have just altered CV116 from 159 to 162 when what I am interested in is a closer match to main crank revolution and getting the fourth chuff on the same point every time.

 

[Psapple83]

Yes, that's it. You can't poll an unknown decoder and ask it what its programmed value is for (pick a CV). I don't miss that capability because the DB150 is all I have ever used. After a while you get a history with the various decoder types and you know which CV's in each you are likely to mainipulate most often, so you remember the narrow range of values you should play with. That's how it works for me. I know that a Tsunami steam decoder's chuff rate is accessed in CV116 and that a value near 160 will work reasonably well for most locos, but with individual tweeking once the motor has warmed a bit and is running smoothly. I don't need to hear a voice telling me I have just altered CV116 from 159 to 162 when what I am interested in is a closer match to main crank revolution and getting the fourth chuff on the same point every time.

Awesome. Thank you for being one of the few people in the world that is OK with not having CV readback. It really didn't seem that important to me for the way I wanted to run trains, and I really just needed someone(whose opinion I trust!) to confirm that for me.

I think the SEB is for me. What was most important about it is the dual throttle, I think(think!) I will use that alot, so I wanted to make sure I got a DT402.
I also feel safer going with Digitrax. There's something about NCE's website that screams "going out of business," because it never works! I want support for my product forever, not just a few years.

 

[timlange3]

I have an Empire Builder (not Super), from when they first came out. With DT100 throttle. Still works fine.

 

[Cjcrescent]

I have an Empire Builder (not Super), from when they first came out. With DT100 throttle. Still works fine.

Tim, you are a man among men!

My first set was the exact same one you describe. If I didn't have a cheat sheet in front of me for programming, and loco selection, I think that I might have gone to the dark side! (Not really, as I did get to use it enough to become proficient at it.) The only thing I didn't like on it was the inability to read back CV's. I have enough locos to warrant something other than the throttle for programming.

So I first used the PR-1, which worked well. Then I used the MS-100 to do the same. I've used just about every computer interface for Digitrax there is and now I do have a DCS-200 and the DT-400, but I rarely use either one for programming. I've had a PR-3 with a power booster attached to it ever since they came out. I do all programming on JMRI via the computer.

Since I also do decoder installs for our LHS, I find this method is much easier to use than the throttle. I've used JMRI so long, that I don't think I could use the throttle for programming at all. I keep the "roster entry" of each and every decoder I have installed and programmed, so if I need to reprogram the loco, its a simple matter. I just checked my list, and I have 276 entries in it.