Designing 10'x12' shelf layout -- comments appreciated!

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Rico said:
I like this much better, looks like fun to operate!
The curve thru the diamond might be tricky.
You do have a reversing section but would be easily managed.
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Thanks Rico! I tried to fit in everything I could in the limited space without getting silly...not sure what Lance Mindheim would think! LOL

BTW I tested a Peco double-slip on a trial layout and it works very, very well, but likely best suited for use on a slow speed siding rather than the main line which is why eliminated them elsewhere. I think there's' enough room to finess the curves around the diamond, but may need to leave the SD loco in the yard! Just makes the dispatchers job more challenging!
 
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Garfield said:
Hi All!

Recently retired, I'm looking to build a small 10'x12' shelf layout in a room in the basement and would appreciate comments/suggestions on my initial design thoughts. I'm a fan of Lance Mindheim's work and have tried to follow his "less is more" philosophy -- to an extent -- but instead of a point to point I decided to push for a continuous loop.

Basic parameters are:
Room dimensions 10' x 12' with 3 foot entrance at bottom (no door, no other obstructions).
Shelves will be attached to wall, 20" deep max. , about 56" high.
Due to space constraints and desire to maximize switching opportunities I'm trying to fit a pier on a 24" peninsula which would leave 28" isles
No possibiliy to extend staging outside of room.

Strictly freelance short line freight RR using switchers and 4-axle diesels ...maybe a small SD.
Track - peco flex code 83; minimum 22" radius...mostly 24", all #6 switches and heavy use of double-slips
Structures are Walthers Cornerstone, all kit bashed to fit.

The pier on peninsula is just a rough-cut...need to think about it. Planning to use grain/cement silos on peninsula (harbor) as a senic break.

Everything will be at grade level, but I'll build on top of 2" foam to allow for some visual relief.

Added a wye due to a lack of turntable, but may delete it design is too awkward.

Continuous run requires the use of a swing-up, but should be doable.

The entire top end will be heavily treed to serve as a scenic break between the two sides and peninsula.

I'd really appreciate some comments and recommendations.

Thanks!

Garfield

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@Garfield Welcome! My layout 10x12 is just like yours except the peninsula pulls off the 12' (11'6") west wall. I have a door with a "duck under" so I have 2 continuous tracks. The inner track can cross to the outer main and it serves the Union Sugar Mill in Betteravia, Ca which was torn down in mid 90s. I have not done much on it over the last couple years as I am considering making a change on the 2 outer tracks, making them a twice around with an over/under crossover. Still thinkin on it......
 

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truckdad said:
@Garfield Welcome! My layout 10x12 is just like yours except the peninsula pulls off the 12' (11'6") west wall. I have a door with a "duck under" so I have 2 continuous tracks. The inner track can cross to the outer main and it serves the Union Sugar Mill in Betteravia, Ca which was torn down in mid 90s. I have not done much on it over the last couple years as I am considering making a change on the 2 outer tracks, making them a twice around with an over/under crossover. Still thinkin on it......
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Hey @truckdad, nice to see someone doing something similar. I'm curious; did you encounter any particular design problems and if so, how did you overcome them?
 
Marlin39 said:
Sorry, but I keep cracking up every time you call this a "small" layout. I have a 2'x12' shelf layout, with 4 industries. That is a small layout.;)

Lance helped me with mine also. I just needed help getting my ideas put into a functional form on paper.
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LOL indeed Marlin! Compared to layouts on these forums a 10x12 is on the smaller side, but it's the biggest I've ever attempted. I've built many On30 Christmas layouts and built and chainsawed several shelf switching layouts over the years including two On30 shelf switchers, an O-scale three-rail and more recently an HO layout for around the walls of my small home office that was unfortunately abandoned to competing space needs. Since I recently retired and have the time, I had a 10x12 room finished in the basement that will be dedicated to a layout. I know 10x12 may seem small to many on this forum, but it's more space than I've ever had before.

Anyway, I have the time now so am taking my time planning this one out. But I'm on pause again as I'm now thinking of planning for a two-level layout, with the bottom being the industrial shelf switcher posted above, but reserving room for a future 12" wide upper deck for an On30 logging point-to-point switchback which I've always wanted to do. For now, all this would mean is lowering industrial switcher shelf to 44" or so, which would mean operating it from a chair, I suppose. Model railroading is a never ending exercise in compromise!

BTW I corresponded with Lance and considered using his design services but decided I wanted this layout to be "mine". But I do own and have read his books which I found to be very worth while.
 
Garfield said:
Hey @truckdad, nice to see someone doing something similar. I'm curious; did you encounter any particular design problems and if so, how did you overcome them?
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My issue with the around the room shelf was there was no space to reverse direction on the mainline without making a bridge over the work isle.. Making a wye coming out of the peninsula made for a tight radius. I should have built the room 10x 18 across the back of my shop but I didnt want to give up that space. I'll live with it, I'm a cheapskate and enjoy making use of anything I can scrounge up..
 
Garfield said:
Hi folks! Sorry for the late response...for some reason the forum bot terminated my account ... apparently thought I was spam(!) and had to re-register, but no worries.
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Sorry about that. I've recently upgraded the forum anti-spam software due to massive spam attacks. Dialing it in is always tricky, and occasionally you get a few good fish caught in the net along with the bad ones.

Garfield said:
Since it will primarily be a point-to-point with no turntable I decided to keep the wye but compressed it and incorporated it into the peninsula for space reasons. I know this is not prototypical, but think it adds to the functionality.
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I like this one a lot better.

First of all, remember rule #1. It's your railroad, you can do whatever you want. That said, I do like that there's not multiple double slip switches.

As for the wye and the diamonds. That's a lot easier to justify. Here's a wye with two diamonds we built in the Port of Tacoma a few years back. (My day job is a project engineer on full size rail projects). Port areas are congested and space is at a premium. Years ago, this railroad was an interurban system and they had a LOT of diamonds. Most have been removed, but we installed two here for more operational flexibility. There had been one here many years ago, and it was removed. Later they decided to restore that. So "selling" a diamond as being reasonable in an industrial area isn't nearly as hard as justifying a double slip switch.


1743542528704.png
 
Not far from here is another diamond. It allows easy access to a large container yard. Since there are often multiple trains in the area, they added this to allow for more flexibility.

1743542935203.png
 
Just beyond that, there are two crossovers, including one they call a "triple crossover" since it has 3 turnouts.
A double slip switch might have worked here instead, but with the two crossover, you can have two trains moving at the same time, as long as they're not crossing over. So it increases capacity.

As you can see, complicated trackwork is not uncommon in large Ports. But double slip switches are pretty rare in reality, so they need more justification.


1743543086828.png
 
I've been trying to find a double slip switch in the Pacific NW, so far I've drawn a blank. King Street Station in Seattle has these two double crossover, which are pretty complicated, but I don't see any double slips. Anyone know of one that I've overlooked?


1743543325731.png
 


Decades ago, St. Louis Union station had at least a dozen doubles slips, and a double wye too, for twin main lines approaching the station.

You can still find the track plan dated from the 30s or 40s on Google.

Not the same as a through main line, but they had a lot of them for the train shed approach.
 
bob said:
Sorry about that. I've recently upgraded the forum anti-spam software due to massive spam attacks. Dialing it in is always tricky, and occasionally you get a few good fish caught in the net along with the bad ones.



I like this one a lot better.

First of all, remember rule #1. It's your railroad, you can do whatever you want. That said, I do like that there's not multiple double slip switches.

As for the wye and the diamonds. That's a lot easier to justify. Here's a wye with two diamonds we built in the Port of Tacoma a few years back. (My day job is a project engineer on full size rail projects). Port areas are congested and space is at a premium. Years ago, this railroad was an interurban system and they had a LOT of diamonds. Most have been removed, but we installed two here for more operational flexibility. There had been one here many years ago, and it was removed. Later they decided to restore that. So "selling" a diamond as being reasonable in an industrial area isn't nearly as hard as justifying a double slip switch.


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Thanks very much for the encouragement and commentary Bob! I really appreciate it. 👍:)
 
RhB Michael said:
Decades ago, St. Louis Union station had at least a dozen doubles slips, and a double wye too, for twin main lines approaching the station.

You can still find the track plan dated from the 30s or 40s on Google.

Not the same as a through main line, but they had a lot of them for the train shed approach.
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Large passenger stations seemed to be very fond of them. Sometimes even to excess.

Give me one good reason for the left side of this double slip switch. It allows the yellow path to exist. What possible use would that have? A single slip switch would be much cheaper.


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Wow no kidding eh!
I can see another one on the right that to me makes no sense either.
 
Rico said:
Wow no kidding eh!
I can see another one on the right that to me makes no sense either.
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Which one? The ones on the right do make sense, if you consider having multiple tracks available for multiple trains at once. That way you don't have, for example, an inbound train being held up by an outbound?
 
bob said:
Which one? The ones on the right do make sense, if you consider having multiple tracks available for multiple trains at once. That way you don't have, for example, an inbound train being held up by an outbound?
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Ah in that case you’re absolutely right it does makes sense, I wasn’t thinking about rush hour. Lol
I was referring to the second one up and right of the highlighted one.
I’m guessing all that is GO's own tracks, I’ve never been thru a mess like that.
 
Here's a timelapse of Toronto Union Station. You can see how many trains are exiting and entering at the same time. It's quite common.


This is why very large passenger stations sometimes have double slip switches, yet freight lines very rarely have them. Freight trains run much less frequently and a short delay doesn't impact them as much.
 


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