DCC & signaling?

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otiscnj

otiscnj

Well-Known Member
I'm considering switching to DCC for a new layout. I am wondering about signaling, however. Can detection be anything other than optical? Is that waht the CMRI does? Do/can signals need their own decoders? I've used current sensing Circuitron detectors in the past with DC. What about Atlas's line of HO signals? Are they compatible with DCC?

Thanks in advance for any and all advice!
 
Detection can be most anything the provides the needed signal to whatever sort of "input" device you are using with your DCC system.

The original DCC spec was limited with regards to things like signals so companies like DigiTrak (any many others) came up with there own solutions to add to the capabilities of a DCC system.

I have a number of TC-64 controllers from:

http://www.rr-cirkits.com/

These connect to the DigiTrax LocoNet "bus" and provide inputs and outputs that can be used for a wide range of uses. RR-CirKits makes boards that work with the TC-64 to control switch machines, signals, relays, do train detection, etc.

This company takes a different approach:

http://www.cti-electronics.com/index.htm

Their system is not DCC based BUT all of the input/output boards can be used alongside a DCC system to handle your switch machines, signals, etc.

I have a mixture of products from both companies.

http://www.rr-cirkits.com/
 


I have full signaling on my garage size layout and use Digitrax BDL168 detector boards for the block detection and SE8 driver boards to power the signal lights. You have to design your layout's track by dividing it into electrically isolated blocks. When a locomotive enters a block, current flow is detected indicating that block is occupied and the BDL168 sends a signal to the Loconet. An interfaced computer w/program determines by your programmed preference what colors (rd,yel,grn) should be selected and on which signal heads. I use Railroad & Company's software, but you can use JMRI's free program to do the same. If all you want is red and green (2-aspect), there are outputs on the BDL/SE8 that can be used for this, but you will have to wire the signal in a way to indicate occupied or clear (red/green).

There is no easy (or cheap) way to have fully operational signals that give you the indications for 3 or 4 aspect signaling ("first block", "block ahead", and "block ahead of that"). You have to use a nightmare of relays and wiring or a computer software program that you set up to give the proper aspect for the existing conditions. All this said, I enjoyed the installation and now the operations as much as any thing else I've down on the layout. Just make sure you study and plan well.
 
+999 on RR&C's Train Controller Gold and associated programs. It can handle just about any aspect of controlling your layout, from just controlling the signals to running multiple trains automatically.
 
How about signals with an NCE DCC system?

Is the Digitrax 'Locobus' some sort proprietary ethernet cabling scheme? Or specialized RJ45 cabling? I've also heard of something called 'Loconet?' Do you go with the pre-made 'locobusnet?' Does this 'buss' run parallel to the track buss and feeders? Is it best to order the 'locobussnet' when you get your system? I'm looking at a a layout that's roughly 30'x 26'. How much does the 'locobussnet' run?

Sorry for all the elementary questions-I've been DC for a long time. Thanks in advance!
 
The name is LocoNet. All DigiTrak systems (as far as I know) have it. You can make your own cables using 6 conductor flat cable and connectors. The LocoNet wiring is separate from the normal wiring to the track. You can buy DigiTrak devices that buffer the LocoNet signals and allow for larger networks. Just head on over to the DigiTrak site and read the docs they have.
 
As "fcwilt said, go to the Digitrax site and read and study all the documents on block detection and signals. That is the only way to understand what you will need and how to setup your layout.

Yes, LocoNet is proprietary to Digitrax. I'm not sure if or what other systems will work with it.

The LocoNet is a communications link that runs to all plug-in panels used for the throttles, stationary decoders, the command station, and computer interface (Locobuffer II or equiv., if a computer is used). For the signals, the BDL-168 and the SE8 also connects to the Loconet, sending their information to each other and the interface and then to the computer program.

The Loconet cable is very much like your home telephone "wire" with the exception that it is six conductor instead of eight. Sometimes you can find it locally, but you can order any length from Tony's Trains at a very reasonable price.

The cable used for the signals is a flat ribbon wire, eight conductor, and runs from the SE8 driver board to the signal location. I used the Digitrax terminal strips to interface the cable to the tiny wires of the signal head. I also purchased this cable from Tony's at a much lower price than Digitrax.

All of the above is very general, but as you dig into other information and decide to go forward, I will be more than happy to help you where I can on this thread. (I haven't a clue on any system other than Digitrax)

BTW: how large of a layout (#of blocks) are we talking about. One BDL168 block detector will detect 16 blocks and one SE8 will drive 32 signal heads.:)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
fcwilt said:
+999 on RR&C's Train Controller Gold and associated programs. It can handle just about any aspect of controlling your layout, from just controlling the signals to running multiple trains automatically.
Click to expand...
It is a whopper of a program and it will do anything you can come up with and can handle a small layout up to the largest world class size. I use it for signaling, traffic control (no more pasture meets), and run passenger trains on automatic. My freights, during Op sessions, are ran manually and with the routes predetermined and controlled by the software. Unfortunately, it is very expensive. I was able to get the Gold through an upgrade that saved me a couple hundred dollars.;)
 
Thanks for the info! After my last post, I came to my senses, and went to the NCE website, and got familar with their buss. I'm leaning more towards NCE than Digitrax, although I know Digitrax is very popular.

As for the number of blocks involved with my new layout, I don't have an exact number yet, but probably 20 mainline blocks, + at least 5 more blocks for seperate yard/industrial areas. I'm still constructing the subroadbed at this point. It will be a double track mainline, with a few alternate routes.
 


I much prefer the NCE throttle to the DigiTrax but the popularity of DigiTrax is hard to ignore. The line of products for RR-CirKits for LocoNet is very good.
 
I'm still tryin to figure this out using the BDL168.
What I am expecting is to be able to have track side signals tell me if a train is in one or two blocks ahead. Depending on the source, I can do this with either the BDL168, period. Or the SE8C, period. When I say period, I mean that nothing else is needed besides the Digitrax operating system and some three aspect track side signals.
I wired the BDL168 up and isolated a track section.
When I power up the layout, the red and green LEDs blink back and forth for a few seconds then only the green blinks about once every two seconds.
The small LT5 has nothing lit on it regardless of which 10 pin connector I put it on.
When I connect the loconet cable to the BDL168 board, none of the locomotives on the layout respond to the throttle.
I pushed the button behind the green LED so it blinks a little faster now.
I set the board address to 001 and then toggled the c.
I'm really operating in the dark here and really have no idea of what to expect and the instruction couldn't be vaguer if they were written in greek.
Now what? The LT5 board has a lit LED in the center but none of the top 4 LEDs lit when the loco is in the isolated track section. I plugged the LT5 into each of the 10 pin connectors but still, none of the 4 LEDs light to indicate a loco in the isolated track section.
Am I missing something here or is there an addendum sheet to the BDL168 instructions?
 
After messing around with the DigiTrax products involved in detection and signalling I decided to go with Railroad & Co TrainController software and RR-CirKits hardware. I found that approach to be far more versatile and easier to understand/setup.

So other then suggesting that you carefully compare your wiring with the diagrams in the DigiTrax documentation and double checking all of your settings I have no other ideas. The DigiTrax hardware did work for me as described.
 
The problem I'm having is where or how to connect signal lights to the BDL168. I presumed that the LT5 would should occupancy of a block.
 
Well the BDL168 is only for occupancy detection. The LT5 should show that. Check page 18 of the BDL168 manual where is shows the LT5 and the indications it should be showing.

For 2/3 color signalling you need additional hardware.
 
I have the LT5 on page 19 of my manual. The 10 pin connectors don't show what block they are for.
Additional hardware? That's kind of what I was afraid of when I started down this road. I really have no idea of what all it requires. I asked a Digitrax rep at a train show what I would need and he told me just the BDL168.
 
On page 20 of my manual I have the wiring for the connectors showing how and what.

The DigiTrax SE8C is a signal driver but it needs something to control it, such as the TrainController software I mentioned.

If you wish to pursue this you really should take a look at the RR-CirKits products. They have a complete line of parts to handle detection, turnout control, signal control, etc all based around their TC-64 "tower controller". The nice thing about the TC-64 is that it is configurable. It provides 8 sets of 8 lines that can be configured for detection, control, signaling, etc. You can purchase just the items you need and have very little wasted or redundant hardware.

But again you need something like TrainController software to control everything.

There are (I believe) some hardware based signal control systems but a software based system can be more flexible and simpler to setup.
 
Ken, you have the right product but not all of the package. It is unfortunate that you were steered wrong by the techrep, but you do need the SE8 board to drive multiple signal heads (up to 32) and some type of software to tell the SE8 which signal and which color to lite (refer: my post #8 and other this thread). The output pins on the BDL board are only for giving an occupancy indication on a remote display board, i.e. occupied...vacant, on or off led. As I have said before, there is no easy or cheap way to get into signals. It is involved and you have to look at it as a major part of the hobby. Please don't give up; it will add a lot of fun to your layout.

The LT5 should have the lower LED on when there is power to that zone of blocks. The upper four will lite only when there is a loco occupying the block. If this isn't happening, it is likely that a wiring problem exist. You should have it wired with one common rail power wire from command station to the common rail of the zone (or layout) and one wire to each detection rail of the section (block) from BDL.
Note: the blinking lights you mentioned is normal and is the polling it is doing when connected to the Loconet and command station. Your LT5 should show occupancy regardless of address or connection to Loconet.

On the 44 Pin connector for BDL:
Pin 1 and A...(or 1A)....common wire from booster (same as for common rail of that zone)
Pin 2,3,4,5 and B,C,D,E...(2B, 3C, 4D, 5E).... to each isolated detection rail in block.

Each group of 5 pins are done this way with the exception of 11, M, 12, and N. They are used for the hookup for the AC/DC power source for the board and each pin is wired individually. When wiring this connector, simply run your wire through pin 1 and A at the same time and solder...same for all the dual pin connections.

BTW and on a different note: you wouldn't happen to have parents that have a motor home and are in Alabama would you? Just a shot in the dark, but I met some folks last week that had a son in MR and lives in King George.
 


Thanks Rex,
first, no on the parents. Both of mine have passed years ago.
On the BDL168, I have a track isolated and can run a loco on it. The power from the DB150 passes through the BDL168 to the track. I can disconnect it from the DB150 and the loco will not get power or signal.
I understand the 44 pin connector and have checked it several times for correct connections and solder points. I have the four Zone inputs powered and my isolated track is from output 2B. The isolated track section is a simple run of track, about 40 feet long with no turnouts. One rail is common and the other is from 2B on the 44 pin connector.
I'm not sure which of the 10 pin connectors is effected by the one isolated track. The LT5 shows the power zone LED lit on each of the 10 pin connectors but no LED for the individual detection sections.
 
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