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Why, if Kadee couplers are recognized to be the best knuckle Couplers available, do manufacturers install other manufacturers couplers? I just watched Model Railroader Magazine's Product review of Athearn's new Genesis EMD GP-38-2, which has Mc Henry couplers. I've noticed that Kadee couplers are never offered on any rolling stock or power from the manufacturer. I wonder why this is and it means to put Kadee Couplers on, there will always be the added cost of new couplers. It's not just Athearn, Bachmann has there own Knuckle Couplers installed on their locomotives and rolling stock, so does Accurail. I'm just curious about this quandary! I would agree that manufacturers need to have choices; but, wonder why some of them don't just bite the bullet?
Most likely Athearn has a deal with McHenry. Competition is good otherwise Kadee would be so expensive you couldn't afford them. That said metal is stronger than plastic and I believe the patient is up for Kadee so there is no reason why others can't offer metal couplers in their line.
I believe Athearn owns the McHenry coupler now, so we're stuck with changing them out. I fussed at the Athearn rep about this because a pair of Genesis Mt-4's pulling a heavy passenger train were separating due to the coupler shafts flexing. I told him that for what they were getting for those locomotives I shouldn't have to swap out couplers. He was sympathetic, but it's a corporate decision. Above his paygrade. I swapped them out.
Walthers produces a Kadee clone. Scale trains has something close, but the draft gear boxes are a bit small for Kadee retrofits. Why don't they bite the bullet? Cost. Keep the price tag low and enhance margin. Every little bit helps. You can blame Kadee for some of this. Years back Red Caboose wanted to supply Kadees on their built up cars and in their kits. Kadee insisted that their couplers be supplied in Kadee packaging and were a little, intractable shall we say, with pricing. They were difficult to work with which I think was a bit foolish considering their patent was already expired even then. That's how we got the McHenry. Atlas likes their Proto-Max, which I hate because of its clunky head and split shank. I just swap them out and cut off the Kadee trip pins. So it goes!
Bite too many bullets and one doesn't make any money and therefore goes out of business. Model railroading is nitche market and manufacturers cannot depend on volume to make profit.
Bite too many bullets and one doesn't make any money and therefore goes out of business. Model railroading is nitche market and manufacturers cannot depend on volume to make profit.
After 31 years of owning my own businesses, I understand the profit motive quite well. I'd also be inclined as Model Train Manufacturer to want to supply my customers with what they want!
After 31 years of owning my own businesses, I understand the profit motive quite well. I'd also be inclined as Model Train Manufacturer to want to supply my customers with what they want!
I have to wonder how big a deal this really is. You and I don't like it but how many people just couple everything together and run it? The issue I had was double headed steamers and a 14 car passenger train with a high percentage of heavy brass cars on a 2% grade. Most home layouts aren't large enough to allow a problem like that one to manifest itself. Are the couplers on Athearn stuff serviceable? Mostly yes. I prefer Kadee but their absence on a model isn't a deal breaker. I think that's your deciding factor right there. Plus maybe a corporate bean counter riding your butt to keep costs down.
I have to wonder how big a deal this really is. You and I don't like it but how many people just couple everything together and run it? The issue I had was double headed steamers and a 14 car passenger train with a high percentage of heavy brass cars on a 2% grade. Most home layouts aren't large enough to allow a problem like that one to manifest itself. Are the couplers on Athearn stuff serviceable? Mostly yes. I prefer Kadee but their absence on a model isn't a deal breaker. I think that's your deciding factor right there. Plus maybe a corporate bean counter riding your butt to keep costs down.
Never had any corporate "Bean Counters" riding my BUTT as I was Chief, Cook and Bottle washer in the two companies I owned. Couplers are such a small cost compared to the rest of the stuff making up a model locomotive. I have to doubt comparisons between what ever couple manufacturer is chosen would really make much of a difference and if it did, I'd add the differanse to the my price! I am a firm believer in going with the one that works for me and sticking with it. When I buy a loco, freight; or, passenger car, the first thing I do is replace the couplers with my chosen type! Not saying you have to.
Never had any corporate "Bean Counters" riding my BUTT as I was Chief, Cook and Bottle washer in the two companies I owned. Couplers are such a small cost compared to the rest of the stuff making up a model locomotive. I have to doubt comparisons between what ever couple manufacturer is chosen would really make much of a difference and if it did, I'd add the differanse to the my price! I am a firm believer in going with the one that works for me and sticking with it. When I buy a loco, freight; or, passenger car, the first thing I do is replace the couplers with my chosen type! Not saying you have to.
So do I. I have a large inventory of Kadee on hand to fit every situation except those shelf couplers for modern tank cars.
Out of my era. What I'm saying here is I don't think there are enough people like us in the market to make it an issue for the manufacturers. This situation or something similar exists in every hobby. The slot car guys fit aftermarket tires pretty much right away. Military modelers buy tons of aftermarket photoetched parts that are better than what comes in the kits, same for decals. The more serious modelers all do this kind of stuff. We don't seem to mind upgrading.
Kadee couplers are made in the USA.
The other couplers are made in China.
Kadee couplers would have to be purchased here, then shipped to China, then inventoried allocated, and installed. If there’s a problem, the couplers would have to be shipped back to the USA. Not common, but it does happen.
So, you take a $30 retail boxcar that probably costs $12 at the factory, add in an additional $3-5 per car for couplers, including shipping, and now you have a car that costs around $16 at the factory. That $30 car now retails for $38, in order to keep profit margins where they are.
We could discuss this tell where both blue in the face, you have your opinion and I have mine! Espee is likely right, to most it don't matter. However, for me, doesn't matter what the manufacture uses, I change all mine to Kadees. You find a product that works and toss the rest!
I also spend a fair amount upgrading wheelsets. Intermountain is my favored brand. The club I belong to requires metal wheels and metal couplers if you leave your equipment on the layout.
We could discuss this tell where both blue in the face, you have your opinion and I have mine! Espee is likely right, to most it don't matter. However, for me, doesn't matter what the manufacture uses, I change all mine to Kadees. You find a product that works and toss the rest!
Your first post in this thread asked the question of why model train manufacturers don’t use Kadees, then when explained you say it doesn’t matter to you. If it doesn’t matter, and nobody is going to change your mind, why did you even ask in the first place?
BNSF971, I was a little more hopeful more people would agree with me. Since many felt I needed a lesson in how manufacturing works, per their opinions, in the end I simply stated what I do and will continue to do!
I guess the ”Tyco” coupler isn’t as prevalent as it once was, at least you can run something until you upgrade.
Once upon a time you didn’t even get couplers or wheels in a kit. Boy am I getting old.
I guess the ”Tyco” coupler isn’t as prevalent as it once was, at least you can run something until you upgrade.
Once upon a time you didn’t even get couplers or wheels in a kit. Boy am I getting old.
While I agree with you, what Alan posted in post #3 was also told to me by my LHS owner some years back. I think that their position has somewhat hurt them in the long run because not everyone exchanges the manufacturers couplers for Kadee. In my case, I yank out the ScaleTrains couplers right away since they don't play well with Kadee #5's or the newer #148's. They can be replaced with #148's or other whisker types, but their coupler boxes are too small for the older #5 centering springs. I exchange the McHenry's from Athearn engines immediately as well. Mostly I leave the originals in my freight cars (excepting the horn-hook's) until I get a failure since they all seem to work well with Kadee's. My experience only. YMMV
I'm really not sure why ScaleTrains made their boxes too narrow for Kadee centering springs.
Your first post in this thread asked the question of why model train manufacturers don’t use Kadees, then when explained you say it doesn’t matter to you. If it doesn’t matter, and nobody is going to change your mind, why did you even ask in the first place?
Well, like many model railroaders, I believe if something works for you, it sort of makes sense to stick with it! In fact, I felt I knew people would make statements about the the high costs of adding Kadee couplers to already expensive locomotives and rolling stock! From ModelTrainStuff Kadee # 5s cost $3.79 for two pair; or $1.78 per pair. This would be retail cost and I'm sure that Kadee would offer even better prices to manufacturers buying in quantity. Let's add Kadees to the cost of an average locomotive's price of $300.00. Again we can argue until we are blue in the face about what the average price is, Go ahead. But, I hear you saying that adding $1.78 to a $300.00 locomotive, making the new price of $301.78 will chase every buyer away, as it is a price that has simply just gotten to excessive! I asked the question because it is a quandary in my mind. But, possibly not to you Collage educated business types. From another passing thought, it was my understanding that at these forums people ask questions that they have quandaries about. I guess what your saying bnsf971this is not the proper place to ask questions about things that make us wonder!
There's just too many numbers we don't have. On a unit price basis, you're right, it's inconsequential. But for a company like Athearn, owned by Horizon, scale that up by a million pieces. Suddenly you're talking real money! Plus your company just happens to own a serviceable coupler already The McHenry. Maybe 5 in 100 customers don't like the couplers. They buy the models anyway The others don't care. Guess what isn't going to happen? If enough of us want them, eventually the market will react, just like it did with Athearn finally starting to put LEDs instead of bulbs in their locomotives. Just like it did when we wanted our DCC decoders installed instead of aftermarket, or when we wanted super detailed locomotives instead of blue box, or mostly RTR instead of kits. I know you didn't want a business lecture, sorry to give you another one, but you did ask the question I'll keep changing out where necessary. It'd be nice not to have to...one less thing! It just takes a few minutes. BTW to correct an earlier post, the Proto Max is Walthers' Kadee clone. I find it pretty much identical to the Kadee offering. They stay. Tangent and Exact Rail use Kadee. Atlas and Accurail use some plastic thingy that I introduce to Mr. Trashcan. On those few ScaleTrains offerings I own (a pair of Tunnel Motors) I've had no issues with their couplers working with everything else. Not sure what Rapido uses, but those are fine too. i keep a few McHenry around for brass locomotive pilot installs to prevent shorts when double heading brass steamers. Oh, and one last thing: Kadee evidently didn't offer much of a discount to Red Caboose when they wanted to standardize on Kadee couplers. One of the reasons we got the McHenry. They may not have been able to for financial reasons...another of those numbers we don't have!
The shank on the Proto Max/ Walthers coupler is symmetrical while the KD#5 is not. That is the only difference I can see. I recently got my first Tangent car and it came with scale head whisker couplers. Unfortunately, it was a coal hopper that should have rotary couplers so they got changed out for modified KD#5s. The spring didn't fit though so that car doesn't have self centering couplers. The train mostly stays intact so coupling/uncoupling isn't an issue.
ScaleTrains wants to reinvent the wheel and have their own proprietary couplers. They're only OK. They can be made to work...sometimes. My UP excursion water tender didn't like staying coupled to my AFT4449 and train, so I ended up switching it to Kadee.
Also, ScaleTrains' coupler pockets demand Kadee Whisker couplers. Go the extra mile and get Kadee Scale Heads while you're at it, and it will look even better than the original ScaleTrains coupler.
