Chinese Factory Closure
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How much??? Millions or billions???
Enough money to cover costs (material, development, overhead, etc…) and pay their employees. Good employees cost good money. It’s different for every company.
I don’t have numbers, but I seriously doubt that (for most companies) executives and VP’s taking pay cuts is enough to off-set the costs of brining manufacturing back to the US from China. And besides, do you think Athearn (or Horizon Hobby, now?) executives are the ones getting paid too much? Anyone know how much they make? It’s not like they’re the execs of a major oil company or something…
In my best Dr.Evil voice: "One hundred billion dollars!" (Pinky to corner of mouth).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTmXHvGZiSY
Sorry couldnt resist...
Seems this thread got kinda dark & serious. Time Out for some brevity.
Yeah exactly...I did some research today and Athearn/Horizons parent company is Virtucon.
The stock ticker is EVIL
Well they most likely make far more than the factory workers, they probably make more than most of the people buying their products. Which is why it gets annoying when they back up their products like vendors in a shang hai market.
Ding Ding Ding!!! Give that man a cigar!!!!
He's dead right, no bones about it. The Genie is out of the bottle now and all we can do is grin and bear it.
If that genie is out of the bottle I sure have some wishes to ask him
I agree for the most part, but don't count out the brass manufacturers quite so fast. Sunset, Key. Overland, Glacier Park, Kohs, UTI and others are quite alive and well. Runs are smaller, as low as 12-25 models. Prices are high. Their market has changed as well. The basic unpainted moderately detailed model is a thing of the past except at used brass dealers and on e-bay. Detail is exquisite. Models are museum quality. They run very well. Brass importers and manufacturers are doing quite well in their little corner of our market. It's just that most if us don't have deep enough pockets to seriously consider what they have to offer. Still, a look at the modeling magazines will show you a steady stream of new model announcements. We are paralleling them though. Manufacturing has moved to cheaper countries, costs moving up, and those able to affort the products are becoming fewer in number.
On the bright side, companies like Bachmann are still offering things at reasonable prices, and their quality is moving up. Atlas Train Man is reasonable, Walthers Trainline is reasonable, and Accurail & Bowser still have reasonably priced stuff, so all is not lost. Say rather that the upper end of the product lines are steadily moving towards being out of reach for more and more hobbyists. This could either self correct, or get worse. I think we will decide that.
Oh, really??
To be honest, Alan, the year's total output from today's tiny cadre of brass importers would not even equal that of just a single modest-sized importer from the early 1960's. Brass is almost nonexistent today by the standards of that bygone era.
When I first came into the hobby there were dozens of importers, with some offering a range of brass locomotives available on a continuous basis, not simply as one-time runs. While runs of today are sometimes no more than 25 units just as you note, some total runs of long ago reached 2,000-3,000 units...as large as runs of the more popular plastic locomotives today!
Incidentally, back in the days the prices of all but the largest brass locomotives were also little more than those of similar examples of diecast engines offered by Mantua, English/PenLine and Varney. As such, brass was widely purchased and run by a broad range of serious hobbyists, not owned mainly by just collectors.
NYW&B
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TRAINFAN9510
Member
True, but my point was is that they mostly are going for the cheapest route when building model trains. Now yeah I would EXPECT my engine to be made from a high quality manufacture process no matter where it is from lol
malibu43
Active Member
First of all, I hope all of you suggesting these companies bring manufacturing back on shore are all ready to start taking out loans and second mortgages to finance your model railroading projects. The difference in labor costs between China and the US is astronomical. That difference will be passed straight to the consumer. That’s not something that can be solved by eliminating “corporate greed”. The US government needs to take steps to make it more appealing and cost effective for companies to mfg in the US. Every company needs to make money to stay in business.
Second, only buying things off of ebay and at swap meets will not “show the companies that they need to mfg in the US.” That will show them that no one is buying their product, they aren’t making money, and they need to find a way to lower costs, increase sales, and increase profits. What do you think the easiest way to do that is? Mfg off-shore. Oh, and only buying off of ebay and swap meets will also put LHS out of business.
Second, only buying things off of ebay and at swap meets will not “show the companies that they need to mfg in the US.” That will show them that no one is buying their product, they aren’t making money, and they need to find a way to lower costs, increase sales, and increase profits. What do you think the easiest way to do that is? Mfg off-shore. Oh, and only buying off of ebay and swap meets will also put LHS out of business.
CBCNSfan
Registered Member
Keep in mind before the manufacturing explosion in model rail a lot of modelers did jut that "built and fabricated the parts out of every day odds and ends. Fact, I'm eying some of the wife's clothes hangers for fuel tank parts that are no longer available. Maybe not to an accurate scale but hey take your time and it'll look OK, that's what the hobby is really about
Cheers
Willis
Cheers
Willis
CbarM
HO all the way!
How much??? Millions or billions???
malibu43
Active Member
Enough money to cover costs (material, development, overhead, etc…) and pay their employees. Good employees cost good money. It’s different for every company.
I don’t have numbers, but I seriously doubt that (for most companies) executives and VP’s taking pay cuts is enough to off-set the costs of brining manufacturing back to the US from China. And besides, do you think Athearn (or Horizon Hobby, now?) executives are the ones getting paid too much? Anyone know how much they make? It’s not like they’re the execs of a major oil company or something…
In my best Dr.Evil voice: "One hundred billion dollars!" (Pinky to corner of mouth).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTmXHvGZiSY
Sorry couldnt resist...
Seems this thread got kinda dark & serious. Time Out for some brevity.
Yeah exactly...I did some research today and Athearn/Horizons parent company is Virtucon.
The stock ticker is EVIL
blackz28
Well-Known Member
there fixed that for yea
B
BSVRR
Guest
Well they most likely make far more than the factory workers, they probably make more than most of the people buying their products. Which is why it gets annoying when they back up their products like vendors in a shang hai market.
When British Leyland went out of business in about 1980 because they could not meet American Safety Standards for height among others, only in England would a non profit form that bought every tool and die that they had with the mission of "keeping 'em on the road". I have bought parts for my '70 MGB for decades now from that group. A brand new bumper cost me $106.00. I could not have the old one chromed for that and it wasn't done in China. There are very few parts that they did not remake new and they have a deal where if you send in your old part, they will rebuild it as new and return it to you. It is easier now to get parts for an MGTD than it was in 1967 when I was trying to restore them. Quite a group and they're a healthy non profit.
Maybe a non profit will be considered by an altruistic few if prices go out of sight. Some still do things for the love of the game.
Maybe a non profit will be considered by an altruistic few if prices go out of sight. Some still do things for the love of the game.
Face it, guys, it is US that created the industry's current problems of pricing. The industry only responded to what WE wanted.
The hobby was doing just fine for decades as one centered around actual building/modeling in all its aspects. But then along came the Internet and its forums, giving a voice to a small segment of hobbyist who really weren't modelers, but wanted the sort of high-detailed rollingstock the real modelers were making. For a number of years I watch a group of posters particularly on the Atlas website constantly moaning and complaining that we absolutely needed commercially available superdetailed models, indicating that we'd be very willing to pay extra for them. Well, in time the industry gave that a try and it worked. But in the process the industry came to realize that a certain element in the hobby appeared willing to pay ANY price for new goods and the vicious cycle began. With ever smaller limited runs, at ever higher prices, it was possible to maintain really good profit numbers, especially by going overseas with production.
Now we are reaching a point where a large segment of hobbyists feel they are being priced out of the marketplace, but still we hear a segment of folks saying bring back quality and U.S. manufacturing and we'll pay the further necessary price increase. Just how big is the 'WE' segment? Can the hobby possibly survive with $100+ cars and $1,000 plastic locomotives? It might, if the hobby shrinks to maybe 10% its current size, but I still have to wonder. Does no one see the parallels with the brass locomotive industry over the years? Where once they were a thriving and significant portion of the market, today they are all but extinct.
At the same time, any boycotting would accomplish very little since the boycotters would undoubtedly come from those hobbyists already feeling the pricing pinch and limiting their purchases currently. The industry has largely gone over to the elimination of kits by the major manufacturers, so don't even expect to see their return en mass. If sales were to drop significantly the manufacturers would either just hike their prices further for the high-end hobbyists and limit production to the bare minimum to make up for it, or simply close up shop like the Chinese plant did.
We've made our own bed, but I don't see us getting much of a rest in it.
NYW&B
The hobby was doing just fine for decades as one centered around actual building/modeling in all its aspects. But then along came the Internet and its forums, giving a voice to a small segment of hobbyist who really weren't modelers, but wanted the sort of high-detailed rollingstock the real modelers were making. For a number of years I watch a group of posters particularly on the Atlas website constantly moaning and complaining that we absolutely needed commercially available superdetailed models, indicating that we'd be very willing to pay extra for them. Well, in time the industry gave that a try and it worked. But in the process the industry came to realize that a certain element in the hobby appeared willing to pay ANY price for new goods and the vicious cycle began. With ever smaller limited runs, at ever higher prices, it was possible to maintain really good profit numbers, especially by going overseas with production.
Now we are reaching a point where a large segment of hobbyists feel they are being priced out of the marketplace, but still we hear a segment of folks saying bring back quality and U.S. manufacturing and we'll pay the further necessary price increase. Just how big is the 'WE' segment? Can the hobby possibly survive with $100+ cars and $1,000 plastic locomotives? It might, if the hobby shrinks to maybe 10% its current size, but I still have to wonder. Does no one see the parallels with the brass locomotive industry over the years? Where once they were a thriving and significant portion of the market, today they are all but extinct.
At the same time, any boycotting would accomplish very little since the boycotters would undoubtedly come from those hobbyists already feeling the pricing pinch and limiting their purchases currently. The industry has largely gone over to the elimination of kits by the major manufacturers, so don't even expect to see their return en mass. If sales were to drop significantly the manufacturers would either just hike their prices further for the high-end hobbyists and limit production to the bare minimum to make up for it, or simply close up shop like the Chinese plant did.
We've made our own bed, but I don't see us getting much of a rest in it.
NYW&B
Last edited by a moderator:
kbkchooch
Verified Human
Ding Ding Ding!!! Give that man a cigar!!!!
He's dead right, no bones about it. The Genie is out of the bottle now and all we can do is grin and bear it.
TRAINFAN9510
Member
Ding Ding Ding!!! Give that man a cigar!!!!
He's dead right, no bones about it. The Genie is out of the bottle now and all we can do is grin and bear it.
If that genie is out of the bottle I sure have some wishes to ask him
I agree for the most part, but don't count out the brass manufacturers quite so fast. Sunset, Key. Overland, Glacier Park, Kohs, UTI and others are quite alive and well. Runs are smaller, as low as 12-25 models. Prices are high. Their market has changed as well. The basic unpainted moderately detailed model is a thing of the past except at used brass dealers and on e-bay. Detail is exquisite. Models are museum quality. They run very well. Brass importers and manufacturers are doing quite well in their little corner of our market. It's just that most if us don't have deep enough pockets to seriously consider what they have to offer. Still, a look at the modeling magazines will show you a steady stream of new model announcements. We are paralleling them though. Manufacturing has moved to cheaper countries, costs moving up, and those able to affort the products are becoming fewer in number.
On the bright side, companies like Bachmann are still offering things at reasonable prices, and their quality is moving up. Atlas Train Man is reasonable, Walthers Trainline is reasonable, and Accurail & Bowser still have reasonably priced stuff, so all is not lost. Say rather that the upper end of the product lines are steadily moving towards being out of reach for more and more hobbyists. This could either self correct, or get worse. I think we will decide that.
flyboy2610
Loveably weird
whats driving up prices is drunk guys on ebay over bidding for stuff....... oh wait that kinda hits to close to home
Oh, really??
To be honest, Alan, the year's total output from today's tiny cadre of brass importers would not even equal that of just a single modest-sized importer from the early 1960's. Brass is almost nonexistent today by the standards of that bygone era.
When I first came into the hobby there were dozens of importers, with some offering a range of brass locomotives available on a continuous basis, not simply as one-time runs. While runs of today are sometimes no more than 25 units just as you note, some total runs of long ago reached 2,000-3,000 units...as large as runs of the more popular plastic locomotives today!
Incidentally, back in the days the prices of all but the largest brass locomotives were also little more than those of similar examples of diecast engines offered by Mantua, English/PenLine and Varney. As such, brass was widely purchased and run by a broad range of serious hobbyists, not owned mainly by just collectors.
NYW&B
Last edited by a moderator:
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