Buildings and Structures; Built-Up VS. Kits?

[BNSF_Denali_Sub]

Josh there is a market for custom builders, however it is not in HO and N scale. Ninety percent of the custombuilders work in O scale for the simple reason that is where the clients are who are willing to spend what it takes to have someone professionally assemble structures. In the past year I have only had 2 HO pieces, 3 S scale pieces and 189 O scale pieces. which should give you an idea as to where potential clients are. I spent 9 years building up a client base working part time as a custom builder to allow me to quit my "regular job" and work full time as a custom builder, which I have been doing for the past three years. While I do build a kit from time to time for clients, nearly all my work is scratch usually from photos only though at times the buildings are still there and I can get a measured drawing.

I know one custom builder who recently told me he no longer does kits, he was building FSM kits for $500-600 plus the cost of the kit and figured out that he was making less then $2 an hour what with assembly and painting all of the details. And at that price most of his clients had a hard time understanding why it cost so much.

One of the things that you will have to look at is how long it takes you to assemble, weather and detail a structure. Then what are you going to ask a client for that service? If a Walthers kit retails for $40 about the most you could get would be $80 for assembly. At that you would have to build it, paint it, weather it and add details in less that 4-5 hours for it to be worth it. Is that practical for you? And do you think you could sell that kit for $120 to someone?

If you would like more information on custom building you can get hold of me off forum and I will try to help [email protected]

Matt Dillow
MD Custom Models

Matt, thank you for the reply

I have noticed that alot of structures are sold Built-Up over in the O scale world. I just cant see myself building them and selling those. One of the biggest problems for me right now is the shipping. If you dont live close to me, it can cost up to $50 to ship a large building safely.... If its a smaller building and can fit in a box of less then 20" long, 15" wide, and 15" tall, i can ship it across the US for about $15-25, depending on the weight. This is with Priority Mail. I also offer Parcel Post and UPS Ground (both of which are usually the same with insurance)

Shipping is usually what draws alot of people away. Ive done my best to keep the shipping down on the stuff that i have sold so far.....


The way i have been selling my buildings right now (these are the ones that i have personally used on my previous layouts) is ive been listing them for what i would like to get for them, and so far, i have had luck. Ive been charging usually full retail for the built-up, sometimes ill get more then that from others bidding, sometimes ill only get my asking price.

You bring up a good point about the prices and my time assembling, painting, and weathering them. $2.00 an hour is just simply not worth it. Usually, if i try and sit there and bang the whole thing out, i can finish a building in about 5 hours or so depending on what it is. Kitbashes may take a little longer, but this is the general time frame it takes me. Mind you i dont just throw the parts together with glue oozing out and such, im careful and if glue does ooz out, ill wait till it dries, sand it down, and mask and re-paint the area so its not visible anymore.

Charging full retail for the kits seems to be working, but im only making usually at the most $20 on a kit, and sometimes im just breaking even. Of coarse, i dont pay full retail for anything, just like most of us.....

If i decide to start doing some more structures, you can bet that i will be trying to find the sales on the structures from online hobby shops. If i can get them at a good sale for 50-60% off, it just might be worth it if i can sell them for full retail or maybe even a little more depending on what the building is.

I just listed my King Midas Flour Mill last night around 10:30PM, woke up this morning, 8:00AM, already 5 people watching it. Price is $49.95, that structure maybe cost me $35 for the 1 complete structure, and to take the extra silos from a previous build. Time spend building was around 4 hours, assembling and painting, no weathering.....

 

[BNSF_Denali_Sub]

In response to the question, I would point out that traditionally HO (and perhaps to a somewhat lesser extent, N) model railroading has been a craftsman's hobby, not one based on purchasing ready-builts. Most hobbyists get great enjoyment, satisfaction and have pride in what they have built themselves. Simply put, ready-builts mainly appeal to the hobby's talentless and the "dabbler" element.

Likewise, even those who are looking to buy built-up structures generally want custom built models of their favorite prototype, not just some generic kitbash. As pointed out up-stream, building such specific models is highly time consuming and big money has to be charged to make it worthwhile. Thus, the pool of clients is typically rather small.

That said, I have seen some kitbashes sell on eBay for reasonable figures but these weren't run-of-the-mill models, they were well detailed and nicely weathered examples. If you really want to test the waters in this area, I'd suggest kitbashing a relatively large factory building (Walthers or Atlas), heavily detailing it so that it appears truly unique and with moderate weathering. Put it up on eBay with a starting figure of say $100 and see where it goes.

NYW&B

I completely understand that this hobby, at least for the HO and N guys is mostly a craftsmen hobby when it comes to structures. I myself would have a very hard time buying a pre-assembled structure, just like others have said, i love to build them and get the satisfaction of knowing hey, i built that Its a great feeling..... The only way i would buy a pre-assembled structure is if i happened apon a GREAT kitbash or scratchbuilt structure that caught my eye and interest. I might even be willing to pay a little extra for it if i really like it....

Ive been selling a few structures on e-bay, but i really dont think e-bay is the way to go. By the time a building is sold, its cost me nearly $10-12 bucks for a $80 structure that i sold in fees from both e-bay and PayPal. Which also hurts the profit..... But there is really no other place to list these, and get the amount of people to see my auctions other then e-bay. Sure i can list them on the forums and such, but that is to a limited amount of people. I guess you get what you pay for in a way, listing on e-bay will cost you if you wanna get your auction out there for others too see....

 

[BNSF_Denali_Sub]

Id like to thank everyone who has voted and posted here, you all have certainly given me alot to think about, and that is just what i was looking for, advise Thanks again!!!

 

[UP2CSX]

Josh, I think the problem with custom built structures in HO is the foot print issue. For example, I think your price for the flour mill is very fair but I simply have no place to put it. In Matt's case, I suspect he's custom building structures to exactly fit available spaces on layouts. Those are commisioned jobs so he knows the foot print before he starts. You need someone who has both the space and need for a flour mill to sell yours.

I have build all my own kits up to this point. However, Woodland Scenics line of built-ups in HO scale is outstanding and the price is barely more than a kit when you include paint, adhesives, and details. They also have some buildings that are simply not available in kits. The WS Municipal Building is a good example. I'm going to make space for this one. I think I could built, paint, and weaher the same structure if it was a kit with as a good a result as WS but it wouldn't be a one evening job. The one thing I don't have right now is time so a built-up is a good option, especially for a unique building. I suspect there are more than a few modelers who aren't good at structures and the built-ups that are available are certainly a good alternative to some of the sloppy looking structures I've seen on otherwise nice layouts.

 

[BNSF_Denali_Sub]

Josh, I think the problem with custom built structures in HO is the foot print issue. For example, I think your price for the flour mill is very fair but I simply have no place to put it. In Matt's case, I suspect he's custom building structures to exactly fit available spaces on layouts. Those are commisioned jobs so he knows the foot print before he starts. You need someone who has both the space and need for a flour mill to sell yours.

This is very true, and, this was a plan of mine as i mentioned in the second post, to built custom built structures to suite peoples needs for space on there layouts. The problem would be getting my name and what i do out there in the hobby world. I dont wanna spend a fortune and run adds in magazines, cuz then i would just be in the hole and out of a ton of money before i even made a few bucks lol.

I was thinking of doing some structures as i said, a few kitbashes, and a few normal builds, and in there ads, putting in big bold font "I DO CUSTOM BUILDS TO FIT YOUR LAYOUTS" or something along those lines lol

I have build all my own kits up to this point. However, Woodland Scenics line of built-ups in HO scale is outstanding and the price is barely more than a kit when you include paint, adhesives, and details. They also have some buildings that are simply not available in kits. The WS Municipal Building is a good example. I'm going to make space for this one. I think I could built, paint, and weaher the same structure if it was a kit with as a good a result as WS but it wouldn't be a one evening job. The one thing I don't have right now is time so a built-up is a good option, especially for a unique building. I suspect there are more than a few modelers who aren't good at structures and the built-ups that are available are certainly a good alternative to some of the sloppy looking structures I've seen on otherwise nice layouts.

Your right on those WS structures, theu do look very nice, and i thought the same thing for the built-ups, the prices are really not that bad when you add in paint, details, and a little time like you said. I just have never really found a use for any of them, me being a modern industrial type modeler lol

 

[Y3a]

How do you LEARN the crafts needed to DO model railroading when you BUY everything? Skills don't seem to matter anymore. Buy it. bust it. throw it out and buy another. I used to build for others, but the lazy types had so much money I kept doubling my prices until they went away. GOOD! the lazy untalented, unskilled types are the reasson Bowser, NWSL, and MDC are gone. Are you really happy with the performance of plastic steam engines? They pretty much stink. The manufacturers who produce articulated engines are using the 50+ year old Rivorossi Y6b type mechanism, with both front and rear engine swiveling so it will go around your trainboards 18 inch radius. BLAH! The one thing that parents haven't taught their kids is patience! Instant gratification. The same thing has happened with RC airplanes.

The structures, rolling stock and engines that will almost NEVER be made are ones that just ONE railroad used. Sometimes, a garage manufacturer will produce limited quantities, and those are almost always 'craftsman style kits'. So where does that leave the unskilled?

Over the years I learned how to build and heavily modify Bowser mechanics, cast parts, and make patterns. Because I model the N&W in the 1930's I use many Y3 2-8-8-2 engines. I have ONE lifelike version, and 12 Powerhouse ones. I modified the lifelike engine into a Y2, and swapped it's tender to a smaller one. I have added the details to the powerhouse engines, stripped and repainted them and put the correct decals of the period on them. They are DCC equipped as well. They articulate correctly, so photography and video looks more correct than any of the recent plastic toys. Last month I took a Spectrum USRA 4-8-2 heavy and put the Lifelikes Y3 tender behind it and added the details (Worthington BL4 1/2 Feedwater heater, top mounted check valve, Low water alarm, spoked engine truck wheels and dual airpumps) and last weekend painted the tender and engine. Total cost= 30 bucks in details, 4 hours of work. Brass one would cost you 500 bucks, and you'd still have to dismantle and paint it.

No manufacturer of N&W prototypes ever made the HU and HUa style 70 ton hoppers. I have drawings from Mainline Modeller, and I will be making a pattern of the sides and ends this summer. I will make a model with Ace brand RTV, and cast the copies in Alumilite. I will build a fleet of about 50 of them. the molds will be good for about 200 pulls, and the total cost per car will be about 14 bucks. Most of that is decals and trucks. Without the skills I learned, I wouldn't be able to build these, or do the other things.

 

[dmeephd]

One gets out of a hobby what one wants...

How do you LEARN the crafts needed to DO model railroading when you BUY everything? Skills don't seem to matter anymore. Buy it. bust it. throw it out and buy another. I used to build for others, but the lazy types had so much money I kept doubling my prices until they went away. GOOD! the lazy untalented, unskilled types are the reasson Bowser, NWSL, and MDC are gone. Are you really happy with the performance of plastic steam engines? They pretty much stink. The manufacturers who produce articulated engines are using the 50+ year old Rivorossi Y6b type mechanism, with both front and rear engine swiveling so it will go around your trainboards 18 inch radius. BLAH! The one thing that parents haven't taught their kids is patience! Instant gratification. The same thing has happened with RC airplanes.

The structures, rolling stock and engines that will almost NEVER be made are ones that just ONE railroad used. Sometimes, a garage manufacturer will produce limited quantities, and those are almost always 'craftsman style kits'. So where does that leave the unskilled?

You are assuming that all participants of this hobby - or any hobby for that matter - want to come away with the same thing. Not so. Not everyone comes into a hobby to learn skills. The objective might be simply 'play' or 'operation.' Or something in between.

As I posted above, I prefer to build all of my buildings, mostly from kits, many kit-bashed, and some scratchbuilt. I have acquired the necessary skills over the years, based in part on my engineering background.

However, I have absolutely no interest in being a carpenter. I have some skill in that area, but frankly, I'd rather watch paint dry! Thank goodness there's Sievers benchwork!

I also find making my own trees extremely tedious. For me, there are many other things to do on my layout than make hundreds of trees. For others, making trees is very enjoyable. Good for them. I mean that most sincerely.

And although I wonder too how someone who buys everything gets by while missing the enjoyment of building, I too realize that there are indeed "different strokes for different folks." I certainly would never call them lazy; they simply have a different path that they are following to obtain enjoyment.

Remember the old Golden rule: Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house. (Better dress in the basement too!)

 

[NYW&B]

...although I wonder too how someone who buys everything gets by while missing the enjoyment of building, I too realize that there are indeed "different strokes for different folks." I certainly would never call them lazy; they simply have a different path that they are following to obtain enjoyment.

Remember the old Golden rule: Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house. (Better dress in the basement too!)

While I tend to agree that it's somewhat unusual for the hobbyist to enjoy and be expected to absolutely master every possible aspect involved in model railroading, I very much see Y3a's point.

The true hobby of model railroading is progressively disappearing today, being replaced with a more or less collector's hobby that has much more in common with the way juveniles created and played with their Lionel and Flyer layouts back in the 50's, than it does with traditional model railroading.

The model railroading hobby, from its inception, was truly a craftsman's hobby where the individual, through personal creativity, talent and developed skills, by his own hand built a miniature and detailed replica of reality. Only in the past 10-15 years has this rather suddenly and drastically changed. Even MR, once the great promoter of all manner of scratchbuilding and kitbashing, has taken to hyping RTR and including professionally built layouts in its pages, along with adopting the mantra of "Dream it, Plan it, Buy it"!

I don't contend that everyone should build their locomotives, and everything else, totally from scratch, or absolutely master every modeling method and technique, but there is certainly more to being a real model railroader than simply buying most everything RTR, taking it out of the box and plopping it down on some crudely scenicked piece flat plywood and saying, "Look at me, I'm a model railroader!" Maybe there's a need to institute a new class of hobbyist called a "model train enthusiast", to distinguish them from those who are actually model railroaders.

NYW&B

 

[dmeephd]

The "true" Hobby?

The true hobby of model railroading is progressively disappearing today, being replaced with a more or less collector's hobby that has much more in common with the way juveniles created and played with their Lionel and Flyer layouts back in the 50's, than it does with traditional model railroading.

My contention is that none of us are in any position to define what constitutes the 'true hobby of model railroading." This smacks of elitism, and will serve to do nothing except drive away new participants. We could wind up being old and irrelevant in the eyes of the new or next generation, and therefore lose the ability to make a contribution to those who follow in our footsteps.

The model railroading hobby, from its inception, was truly a craftsman's hobby where the individual, through personal creativity, talent and developed skills, by his own hand built a miniature and detailed replica of reality. Only in the past 10-15 years has this rather suddenly and drastically changed. Even MR, once the great promoter of all manner of scratchbuilding and kitbashing, has taken to hyping RTR and including professionally built layouts in its pages, along with adopting the mantra of "Dream it, Plan it, Buy it"!

It's known as 'progress' and those who oppose it are inevitably termed "Luddities." Times change, things change, and people change. The passage of time has allowed the hobby of model railroading to include those with either less skill or whom do not have the desire to gain all of these 'skills,' yet want to participate. That certainly does not make the 'craftsman' any less valued or relevant; it does however, open up the opportunity for that craftsman to pass on his or her knowledge and demonstrate their skills to those newcomers. Simply because the audience is only mildly appreciative, and does not take up the skillset you demonstrated, does not make craftsmanship any less valued; or the RTR-hobbyist any less welcome.

I don't contend that everyone should build their locomotives, and everything else, totally from scratch, or absolutely master every modeling method and technique, but there is certainly more to being a real model railroader than simply buying most everything RTR, taking it out of the box and plopping it down on some crudely scenicked piece flat plywood and saying, "Look at me, I'm a model railroader!" Maybe there's a need to institute a new class of hobbyist called a "model train enthusiast", to distinguish them from those who are actually model railroaders.

By the narrow boundaries that you have set up (crudely scenicked [sic] piece flat plywood), one would have to agree with your statement on it's face value. However, it is patently unfair and does not describe a large population of model railroaders who buy RTR equipment, spend countless hours researching and participating on forums such as this one, and carefully scenic and grow their miniature empire on something much more elaborate than a "crudely scenicked piece flat plywood."

By your suggestion that we classify and differentiate between "model train enthusiast" and "actually model railroaders" you are doing a grave disservice to the hobby as a whole. You may call yourself anything you want, but regardless of your experience level, you have not the right to classify others. Remember, there is always someone else whose model railroading expertise and experience may make yours pale in comparison. How would you like that stranger to denigrate your position and experience and skills and classify you as something other than a true model railroader? It could happen; you might meet that person at the next show or club meeting.

I've seen it happen. At a club meeting in Duesseldorf years ago. Some of us so-called veterans were participating in the usual self-congratulatory rhetoric when in walked this old gentleman with a hand-made, HO gauge steam loco. The craftsmanship was incredible; he had spent five years on it, bending the metal with hand tools and small benchtop brakes. Then he placed the loco, an S-9, on the track, and proceeded to put water in the body! The damn thing was actually a fully functional steam locomotive, using the 16 VAC power from the track to heat the boiler. This old guy, who probably saw Allied bombers in the skies above his home during the war, thought that powering a steam locomotive with an electric motor was the height of foolishness. Perhaps he was right. That loco could pull 50 cars up a 3% grade without breaking a sweat! (Pun intended.)

There's room enough in this hobby, Model Railroading, for all of us. If I, with 30 years of modeling experience, am not willing to classify or prejudice others, based solely on their ability level (whether they are capable or unwilling to glean more), why are you so quick to do so?

David Martin, Ph.D.

 

[dmeephd]

master Builder

Id like to thank everyone who has voted and posted here, you all have certainly given me alot to think about, and that is just what i was looking for, advise Thanks again!!!

Hello Josh;

I discovered that there is a builder named Michael Breuer - judging from his work, I'd call him a Master - up in Canada who builds HO buildings. Mainly European. Charges anywhere from $400 - $1,500 for each one. He has some stock plans that he builds, and will do custom work. Say he builds several every three months.

So don't give up; there is a market out there. People will pay for quality.

David

 

[UP2CSX]

I think we're treading on shaky ground here. I am certainly not willing to define the term "model railroader" based on how I engage in the hobby. A person that uses mostly RTR engines, rolling stock, and structures can be as good a model railroader as me, his approach is just different. A big deterrent to this hobby has been the "craftsman snob" attitude. A lot of people just don't have the skill that many people here have. This should be a big tent and everyone with an interest in model trains should be part of the same fellowship. I still build kits and have lots of admiration for people who do it even better than I can. There are other people who think they can build kits and would frankly be a lot better off with RTR.

This same argument has occurred in ham radio. It was dying off because you still had to learn Morse code, even though very few people use it any longer. There was also a lot of obscure electronics theory you had to learn even if you were never going to build your own transceiver. The FCC finally did away with the code and most of the really technical theory to get a restricted ham license that allows you to operate on the most popular bands. As a result, ham radio is once again growing as a hobby, even though the old-timers said the demise of the code test would lead to the hobby being debased. It hasn't been and I think we need to be careful not to carry that "old timer" kind of thinking over to model railroading also.

 

[dmeephd]

Right On!

Jim, you have it exactly. And your Ham Radio analogy hammers the point home.

David

 

[mdcustom]

Jim have to agree, this discussion was getting a bit out of hand. By the restrictive reasoning Alex's layout would not be a real layout since he buys 90%+ of his buildings from others, mostly scratchbuilders, since he hates to put structures together. These shots are of some RTR (as far as Alex is concerned) structures that I built for him that he is in the process of installing on his layout. All of the scenery is his, Alex even "covers up" what scenery I place on the structure bases to get everything to blend into his scheme.

This hobby takes all types, that is one of the great things about it. And besides if everyone was a "craftsman" where would I be trying to sell structures.

Matt Dillow
MD Custom Models

 

[RexHea]

Jim and David:
I could not have put my opinion into written words better than you have done already; for me to say more would be redundant.