ATLAS Custom Line MK IV Turnouts, Insulated Frogs & Atlas Snap Relay w/ DCC

[jtomai]

TURNOUT POLARITY SWITCHES & DCC:

I've been using ATLAS Custom Line MK IV Turnouts on my layout and encountered a "dead current" problem at a Atlas MKIV Turnout w/ insulated Frog at a 3% grade. My locomotives started stalling at the insulated frog. I quickly realized that there is no power at the insulated frog. Its also a problem at other parts of my layout so I want to know how to wire the turnouts to provide polarity corrrect power to the frog. I want to make sure my Atlas MKIV turnouts have power at the frog, and Atlas makes such a product "Atlas "Snap Relay pt #200" , but I dont know how it will work with DCC

My question is, I am about to go DCC any day now, Will the Atlas Snap Relay work with DCC? If so, how do I wire it into my DCC system? Do I also need the Atlas Remote switch machine that it is paired with? Because I am planning on using tortoise switch machines for the rest of my turnouts.

In general, I want to know the best way I can handle the polarity issue of powering insulated frogs of Atlas MK IV turnouts and DCC.

Thanks,

John

 

[spruce57]

John,
I don't have an answer, because my situation and question is the same as yours.

Dave

 

[GrampysTrains]

Hi John: The tortoise has two built in switches, one of which you can use to change the polarity of the frog. Tortoise instructions show how the built in switches can be used. DJ.

 

[fast_ian]

Hi,

[Somewhat controversial viewpoint coming.....]

From Loystoys:

Live frogs are good for nature, but are not needed for model railroads anymore. In the past, when locos didn't have all-wheel power pickup, and the power pickup they had wasn't very good, you needed all the power you could get on every wheel that had power pickup. This made live frogs all but a requirement for a good-running railroad. But with the quality built into today's locos, the power provided by a live frog just isn't that important any more - providing you keep your locos properly serviced. In fact, with DCC, they can be a detriment. There are many web sites with all kinds of information on how to keep the frog from causing a short circuit: to include installation of 1157 automotive bulbs to feed the power, and other things. But, if you don't really need power there, why go to all that trouble when you can install a turnout that doesn't have that problem to start with. Giving up this one small area of power is a small price to pay for a turnout that's overall easier to use.

The complexity of wiring these things (even with tortoi) shouldn't be worth it anymore - Multiple axle pickups and good (perfect?) track laying should take care of it for you - Even if one axle is dead in the frog another should still be able to supply power to get you thru......

As to doing it with Atlas TO's (are they even "DCC friendly"? Can they route power?) and a relay your wiring complexity is going to go thru the roof! If you really, really, want it I'd suggest looking at Peco's "electrofrog" range coupled with tortoi motors for polarity switching. However, I think I'd look, very closely, at what's going on when a loco stalls - I suspect you'll see there's a pickup problem on another axle.......

As always, my 02c, and I'm sure there will be many counter-arguments!

Cheers,
Ian

 

[GrampysTrains]

I agree, Ian. Here's something else I've found with Atlas switches. The points tend to not be powered, esp. after painting and ballasting. This could be mistaken for a problem at the frog. My solution, was to run feeders to every point rail, problem eliminated. DJ.

 

[Cjcrescent]

...(are they even "DCC friendly"? Can they route power?)...

Cheers,
Ian

Ian;

Atlas turnouts have always been DCC friendly. You can turn the turnouts that have the dead metal frog casting into a hot frog fairly easily, depending on how the turnout is thrown. If the OP is using atlas switch machines the wiring neede for the relay is quite easy to install. If he is using something else, then it can get complicated.

But I have to agree with Grampy, its a problem not in the frog but in the points. For some reason the points are losing contact with the stock rails, and have no electricity going thru them. GT had the answer. Just run a small wire from each stock rail to the appropriate point and you're done. But I've also seen where the closure rails to the frogs also lose their contact, causing the points and the closure rails to the frog to go completely dead. It doesn't matter if he has all wheel pickup or not, the loco will die in this section. Again a small wire from the appropriate stock rail to the closure rail solves the problem.

 

[fast_ian]

Atlas turnouts have always been DCC friendly. You can turn the turnouts that have the dead metal frog casting into a hot frog fairly easily, depending on how the turnout is thrown. If the OP is using atlas switch machines the wiring neede for the relay is quite easy to install. If he is using something else, then it can get complicated.

Fair enough! Thanks for the clarification.

... Again a small wire from the appropriate stock rail to the closure rail solves the problem.

Thanks also for that - I'm sure there are now many readers wondering how difficult it would be to do on their layouts

I don't recall now, but isn't this issue one of the reasons Peco (and others?) are (often) considered "superior"? [They spring load the closure rails? and/or already have metal contacts?]

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Cjcrescent]

Fair enough! Thanks for the clarification.

Thanks also for that - I'm sure there are now many readers wondering how difficult it would be to do on their layouts

Actually on the club's layout when I lived in Mobile,Al. Had this problem more than once. We always took a flattened rail joiner and wedged it in between the closure and stock rails, and then hit it with some solder.

I don't recall now, but isn't this issue one of the reasons Peco (and others?) are (often) considered "superior"? [They spring load the closure rails? and/or already have metal contacts?]

Cheers,
Ian

Considered superior by whom. With a little tweaking, Atlas turnouts are just as foolproof and derailment free as any other turnout. Choosing track brands is a lot like choosing a DCC system. It really boils down to a personal choice. My choice was to handlay all my rail, esp turnouts, except in the hidden staging yards where maintenance would be a headache. There I use tweaked Atlas #6 turnouts. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[fast_ian]

...We always took a flattened rail joiner and wedged it in between the closure and stock rails, and then hit it with some solder.

Maybe the above should be made a sticky? *Very* cool solution, thanks for sharing.

Considered superior by whom.

"The great unwashed"?
"The cognoscenti on the 'net"?

I'm not implying any criticism of Atlas here btw - Their stuffs more available than anything else, it's priced competitively and Mr Atlas patented flex track apparently - They've been around a long time in this business......

With a little tweaking, Atlas turnouts are just as foolproof and derailment free as any other turnout....

Any other tweaks you wanna share?

"You pays your money and takes your choice." - I guess what I'm asking is if Peco's need the same kinds of "tweaks"?

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Cjcrescent]

Maybe the above should be made a sticky? *Very* cool solution, thanks for sharing.


Any other tweaks you wanna share?

"You pays your money and takes your choice." - I guess what I'm asking is if Peco's need the same kinds of "tweaks"?

Cheers,
Ian

Atlas tweaks;

Place small strips of .20" styrene on the inside of the guard rails. This forces the wheels to stay away from the frog point that can wear down over time.

Place a straightedge over the top of the frog, an rock it back and forth. This will check for the frog being higher than the running rails. If it is higher, file the top down until its the same height as the surrounding rails.

If the wheels drop down when going thru the frog, place small strips of .10" styrene into the bottom of the flangeways. This will support the wheels that do this as they go thru the turnout, and will not affect the ones that don't drop.

Chamfer the ends of the points with a small file. This helps prevent wheels from picking the points.

If the turnout has been used for many years and the frog point has worn down, fill the frog with 5-min epoxy. When this has dried thoroughly, file the top smooth to the same height as the running rails, and then take a hacksaw blade of at least 28 teeth per inch, and cut new flangeways.
This last suggestion is a little extreme but it shows what can be done.

Pecos sometimes needs similar tweaks, but it depends on the age of the turnout. I can remember when peco had plastic frogs like the Atlas TO's.

The NMRA about 2 years ago, tested all brands of commercial turnouts head to head and how they conformed to standards. The best turnouts in this test were ME and FastTracks. The FT was deadon with the NMRA gauge, and ME was off just a little. The worst ones were the B'manns EZ track turnouts. IIRC, in order Shinohara, Peco, and Atlas were the next in line to conform to the gauge. They all had wider flangeways the gauge showed than the RP. But the thing that stood out was that they all performed pretty close to the same level.

 

[jtomai]

Well, the underlying cause for the stall at the frog on this particular atlas turnout was because of the grade. I significantly lowered the grade and the problem has retreated about 90%. Im leaving well enough alone for now, as I am about to go DCC and will install that system first. Then I am going on to start installing machine switches formy turnouts. -Thats when I think I'll revisit this issue.


From now on all my turnouts will be level at 0% grade.

 

[Brit train fan]

Atlas Custom Line switches have an insulated frog, which can be powered with a Snap relay or other switch machine with contacts. The problem is with the Atlas switches with all plastic frogs, like Snap Switches. If you use them at slow speed with small switchers or other small wheelbase locos like 0-4-0 or 0-6-0s, they will stall generally. As I have a bunch of Snap switches I'm going to try and file the plastic frog down (with a Dremel Drill Press) and add a thin piece of brass foil on top so that I can power the frog like an Atlas Custom Line switch. A power lead to the foil will be soldered on and then this replacement frog will be switched by a micro switch. I wish somebody would make a cast brass or potmetal frog that I could use. The problem there is the Snap switch frog is curved (18"radius) on one side and not straight like a regular #4 or #6 switch. If anybody knows of a replacement metal frog please let me know. Thanks.