Athearn BB no more?

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I know when I first started in the 80s. I enjoyed putting shaker box kits. I totally agree, it is a nice feeling when you complete a kit and it does build your confidence. Even if it is a fairly trivial task to assemble.

My concern is not only the demise of these type of kits. But now you can buy a structure kit already assembeled. We were recently talking about this same subject at a club meeting I recently joined. One guy mentioned that feels almost as if its nothing more then toy trains. Take it out of the box and plunk it down on the layout. Even though its a detailed model instead of an actual toy. Its the craftsman part of it that is taken away. I do have to say, I certainly see the point of view. And this was from a very stand up guy, enjoyed building kits and was not the type of person that was outspoken. So he certainly wasnt rocking the boat for anyone that may take offense to that.
 
OK i must ask you all, do ya think with this announcment that prices on unbuilt kits will stay the same, drop or go up some?

My opinion i think they may go up a little.


I guess at the next show im gonna stock up. Although im sure there is always gonna be an abundance of them at shows & on ebay.

I dont think ive ever payed more then $5.00 for a good built one at a show and gotten em built & unbuilt for as low as $3.00

Mike
 
I know when I first started in the 80s. I enjoyed putting shaker box kits. I totally agree, it is a nice feeling when you complete a kit and it does build your confidence. Even if it is a fairly trivial task to assemble.

My concern is not only the demise of these type of kits. But now you can buy a structure kit already assembeled. We were recently talking about this same subject at a club meeting I recently joined. One guy mentioned that feels almost as if its nothing more then toy trains. Take it out of the box and plunk it down on the layout. Even though its a detailed model instead of an actual toy. Its the craftsman part of it that is taken away. I do have to say, I certainly see the point of view. And this was from a very stand up guy, enjoyed building kits and was not the type of person that was outspoken. So he certainly wasnt rocking the boat for anyone that may take offense to that.

It wasn't the first time this happened either. One fellow that I know up here told me and a couple of others that he feels that this was like the 1950's when hi-rail/tinplate was spun off the MR into it's own thing from the scale modellers back then. Around and around the wheel we go I guess...:cool:

If one hears a lot of people talking about their "toy trains" then one might see it coming. And this is without the desire to rock any boat---it is just there--
 


OK i must ask you all, do ya think with this announcment that prices on unbuilt kits will stay the same, drop or go up some?

My opinion i think they may go up a little.


I guess at the next show im gonna stock up. Although im sure there is always gonna be an abundance of them at shows & on ebay.

I dont think ive ever payed more then $5.00 for a good built one at a show and gotten em built & unbuilt for as low as $3.00

Mike

I would think they all may go up a tad. The popular freight cars and popular road names will probably go up slightly more then that. However, these would then be part of the collectible side of the market then. The modelers that were really looking to add a perticlar car to thier layout will probably just buy a current available model instead of paying an inflated price for a kit that lacks details. And why would he when he plans to really use the car and not store it in a box.

Since I am a modeler more then a collector for value reasons. I want cars for the purpose of using them, so paying big money for a shaker box kit is silly due to the lack of details. If im paying that kind of money, say a price range of a RTR freight car. Ill take the RTR car because of its better couplers, trucks and wheels, and more detailing on the car itself.
 
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I would think they all may go up a tad. The popular freight cars and popular road names will probably go up slightly more then that. However, these would then be part of the collectible side of the market then. The modelers that were really looking to add a perticlar car to thier layout will probably just buy a current available model instead of paying an inflated price for a kit that lacks details. And why would he when he plans to really use the car and not store it in a box.

Since I am a modeler more then a collector for value reasons. I want cars for the purpose of using them, so paying big money for a shaker box kit is silly due to the lack of details. If im paying that kind of money, say a price range of a RTR freight car. Ill take the RTR car because of its better couplers, trucks and wheels, and more detailing on the car itself.

Which may very well be the result---furthering the concentration on RTR overall with quite a few people. With more desire for greater accuracy comes then greater price increases which will make HO RTR into the new brass era--- With some RTR going for upwards of $599 and up---I expect that we may end up with 4 figure prices soon---
 
Barry, I have two friends that used to work for Athearn, one in production and one in management. According to both of them, the average wage of a production line worker was about $20 an hour, which equaled $35 an hour with taxes and benefits. Athearn had a very loyal work force and most of the people making the BB kits had been with Athearn at least ten years, many for 20 years and more. Uncle Irv, no matter what else is said about him, treated his employees well and they loved him. Everything changed when Irv passed away in 1991. His son and daughter ran the company for a few years before selling out to private investors in 1994. The new owners knew nothing about model trains but were making a nice profit on the BB models and production continued as normal except they didn't treat employees as well. Wage cuts ensued and benefits were reduced as more and more new companies came into the business with Chinese production. The company moved from their rundown facility in Compton CA, which had become a very dangerous place by 1998, to new facilities in Carson City. Even though older employees were leaving in droves, Athearn was still trying to produce inexpensive models in one of the highest cost markets in the US. Even with wage and benefit cuts, the cost of utilities, property tax, and the constantly increasing California minimum wage laws took their toll on the profit margin. Machinery to produce BB models was now over 30 years old and replacement machinery was six to ten times more expensive than the originals. Dies were wearing out and had to be replaced and new machines meant new tooling and the related costs.

The MR business continued to evolve at a rapid pace, with Life-Like, Bachmann, and others moving from their toy train image to companies that were producing high quality trains with much better detailing than anything Athearn could produce with their technology. By the dawn of the 21st century, Athearn was on the ropes. No new freight cars had been introduced for almost five years. The last new engine to be introduced was the E44C in 1997. They still had the same crew frying headlights and the same basic drive that had been in use for the 15 years since flywheels were introduced. Modelers were flocking to Life-Like, Bachmann, and especially Atlas, long the nemesis of Athearn, that kept up with technology and was introducing DCC ready trains with incredible details. Athearn was in desperate financial straits and bankruptcy and liquidation were becoming likely.

In 2004, Horizon Hobbies picked up Athearn. The sales price was never disclosed but it was estimated to be a fraction of what Athearn would have been worth in 1991. Horizon was a leading R/C car and aircraft producer and had a long history of production in China. They recognized the potential of the model railroad revival with the baby boomer's beginning to retire, DCC, and the desire for more and better detailed engines and cars. They immediately began plans to move production of what would become the RTR line to China as a stopgap measure to compete with the likes of Atlas and Bachmann. They recognized that the demand for BB kits was continuing to fall and would do so for the foreseeable future. They started plans to produce the Genesis line to directly compete with Atlas and (now) Walthers P2K line. Production began in 2005 and the RTR line was improved. Now Atlas and Walthers were the ones in the dust since they had no (relatively) inexpensive locomotives or freight cars. Thus, Atlas introduced the Trainman line and Walthers the P1K line, to stay in the competition with Athearn for both ends of the market.

When Horizon purchased Athearn, they still had large stocks of materials for the BB line. Horizon continued to produce the BB line for four more years and cut prices on many of the items to move them. Production ending in late 2008, and all the workers laid off. If it had not been for this large stockpile of materials and partially completed BB kits, Horizon would have ended production of the BB line much sooner, since the margins were only about 5%, compared to 20% of the RTR line and 25% for the Genesis line.

The amazing thing is not that production of the BB line has ended but that it lasted as long as it did. If it had not been for the bad decisions made by the previous owners, the stockpile of materials wouldn't have been there and Horizon wouldn't have tried to recoup their investment by working off the stockpile at a small profit.

So, that's the story as has been told to me. Yes, the end of BB cars is the end of an era, but that era really ended a long time ago. Reality is just now catching up to time. To those of you lamenting the passing of one of the hobby's great traditions, I join you. However, if it was your business and your money, would you have made any other decision? I'll leave that up to you.

As a final note, if you want to note the official demise of the BB line, mark today in your calendar. Sometime between last night and tonight, the BB line has completely disappeared off the Athearn web site.
 
Jim Was there any effort to build the market in any other way? Another thing would be to see whether they looked into moving into another state altogether. California being what it is, it is a little surprising that there was an effort to stay there at all...:eek:At least it did not go to some place like Somalia for cheaper labour. Then the issue would be spending $$$ to 'bribe' the local pirates to 'allow' product safe passage out. Saving $$$ on labour costs can mean spending it elsewhere in some cases---

I still think that that was not all across that expensive, then again...

Athearn is huge say compared to a company like---oh---Nscale Engineer(sp?) for example---maybe the scale of the company will be a little close to the latter than the former if one is looking to build kit forms of product.

And there will be others coming forward----
 
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If ya really think about it they could still offer the BB line. Just use the new RTR kits Offer them unbuilt maybe just dont make em by the boat load.

They wouldnt have to pay to have them assembled. They could offer them at a lower price.


If ya think about it for the cost of a RTR kit you can take a BB kit and prolly have the same amount of money in it maybe a lil less & that satisfaction of building it your self.

So i wonder will horizion sell off the dies, ect for the BB kits or keep em around and upgrade them to make RTR kits??
 
If the dies and molds are as claimed to be--no upgrading done for years, worn out and etc then they may just get disposed of. Or land in the hands of some collector or such...:cool::rolleyes:
 


I think if Athearn was never sold in the first place. That market would still be where it is today and they would have ended up dropping the BB line anyways.
 
I think it would be pretty sweet to get some of the dies, then ya could cast some in resin.

With some of the dies likely worn out, resin casting wouldnt help on those perticular kits. But I see what your saying. It would be nice to get my hands on the 1990s era well cars and container molds.
 
Barry, by the time the new owners of Athearn realized they were in big trouble, there was neither the financing nor capital to pick and move to another state. Maybe they could have done it in 1994, but not by 2004. In retrospect, it would have been a smart move, but everything is clear in the rearview mirror.

Thanks, Anton. I agree, the market will decide if some version of the BB resurfaces.

Stang, the cost of assembly is trvial when you're paying workers $3-$4 an hour. As I said earlier, when you have people whining if they have to put a few grab irons on an engine or car, do you think Horizon really wants to hear the whining when those handrails don't fit right? In addition, it's much easier to make sure an RTR model goes in the container all in one piece than having dozens of pieces in the right box and making understandable instructions. According to my friend, many of the original BB dies have been retooled for the the RTR line and very few actual BB dies remain. I don't think there's much of value to sell off. Even if there was, do you really think a market for products that's been dying for at least the past 10 years will suddenly revive because a new company comes out with the same stuff you can buy at e-bay, garage sales, and train shows for almost nothing? I certainly wouldn't bet my retirement money on it.
 
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With some of the dies likely worn out, resin casting wouldnt help on those perticular kits. But I see what your saying. It would be nice to get my hands on the 1990s era well cars and container molds.

yeah thats what im getting at not really the older dies but like you said stuff from the 90s ect..

well cars and 89 ft flats would be great.

Also while were on the subject did athearn ever offer 89" enclosed auto racks in the BB line?
 
Barry, by the time the new owners of Athearn realized they were in big trouble, there was neither the financing nor capital to pick and move to another state. Maybe the could have done in 1994 but not by 2004. In retrospect, it would have been a smart move, but everything is clear in the rearview mirror.

Thanks, Anton. I agree, the market will decide if some version of the BB resurfaces.

Stang, the cost of assembly is trvial when you're paying workers $3-$4 an hour. As I said earlier, when you have people whining if they have to put a few grab irons on an engine or car, do you think Horizon really wants to hear the whining when those handrails don't fit right? In addition, it's much easier to make sure an RTR model goes in the container all in one piece than having dozens of pieces in the right box and making understandable instructions. According to my friend, many of the original BB dies have been retooled for the the RTR line and very few actual BB dies remain. I don't think there's much of value to sell off. Even if there was, do you really think a market for products that's been dying for at least the past 10 years will suddenly revive because a new company comes out with the same stuff you can buy at e-bay, garage sales, and train shows for almost nothing? I certainly wouldn't bet my retirement money on it.

yeah i can see your point as far as paying people to put them together vs sorting and putting stuff in boxes.

But like i said before i dont see BB kits drying up anytime soon on the 2nd hand market.
 
yeah i can see your point as far as paying people to put them together vs sorting and putting stuff in boxes.

But like i said before i dont see BB kits drying up anytime soon on the 2nd hand market.

That particular market does surprise me sometimes---example was when wife and I went to a fleamarket and fell over a box full of AMBROID kits still in their boxes. Still trying to assess them in terms of completeness...

And if the reports of what the inventory was like there may be enough floating around for quite some time yet. Unless, of course, someone be really miserable and trash the backlog-----
 
RCH, though the experience may seem trivial, it is a baby step, and it builds confidence in the modeler. You think that the craftsman won't fade away? You are truly blinded.

Slow down, Bob. Are you trying to say the concept of the railroad model craftsman (with apologies to the magazine) is dead or is exclusive to your generation? Who do you think made this hobby over 100 years ago? Who cut the molds for the Globe F7 or the Athearn PS2CD 4740 covered hopper kit? Who designs the cottage-industry resin kits of today? There is no need to ring the alarm bells here. Craftsmen will endure, just as they did long before the first carriage was pulled along a railway. And a funny thing about craftsmen, they have a way of building what they want without kits or instructions.

I'm not suggesting that every craftsman starts with a body of knowledge and experience. But the very basic skills required to assemble an Athearn or Accurail or MDC kit can be picked up anywhere, from the garage to the workbench. If turning a screw inspires confidence in building models, I think it's a false sense of confidence for anyone over ten years old. That tiny skill set is what is built upon to become a craftsman. The blue box kits were called "shake the box" kits for a reason. There's not much to them. Mastering the assembly of blue box kits is not a prerequisite for craftsmanship, although it very well can occur along the way.

Sure go out and buy a Tichy, a P2K, or an Intermountain. I can buy 2,3,or 4 BB for what you are spending. And with a bit of detail work make them looks as good, if not better than your more expensive cars. And accomplish the result in the same amount of time, if not faster, and at less expense. The proof is in the pudding.

You mentioned your fleet of 2000-2500 cars earlier. Frankly, I think it's difficult for you to argue quality vs. quantity with me. That's an average of 40 to 50 cars per year. Unless you do model railroading full time, I don't believe you attempt a level of detailing or quality that approaches what I do.

For my personal pursuit of this hobby, building models of locomotives, rolling stock and vehicles forms the majority of my time spent at the workbench. I have many blue box cars in my collection and I think they are fantastic starting points for many different prototypes. I generally do plenty of detail work on them to get them to a level comparable to some of today's models, including those offered under the Genesis banner. The tooling is and always was from the beginning very crisp and uniform. Once the cast-on stirrups, grabs, roofwalks, brake details, etc. are removed, the opportunity to make a very nice model is there. But to suggest a "bit of detail work" gets you a model comparable to a Tichy flatcar is uniformed at best.

And just how much detail can one see in a car that is traveling around a layout? I venture to say not much, especially when weathering covers up much of the detail anyway. Detail becomes a second look when observing a well weathered car, don't you think?

I can't pretend to know the answer. I'm not interested in cars traveling around layouts. I think they're more interesting to look at when they are being "loaded" or "unloaded," i.e., parked or being switched at an industry. I agree that the individual details will disappear into a well-executed scene, but there are many details that, when accepted as good enough, break the illusion that you're looking at the real thing instead of a plastic toy.

When The BB line came out, all we had were wood, metal, and a combination of the two. Actually, the sides roofs, ect still had to be assembled and glued together. And many had to be painted as the wood was raw and unpainted. When the BB came out it was a blessing. No more glue marks. No more split basswood sides. Been there, done all of that. You're point is well met, but off the mark by a long shot. And the kits you've mentioned are child's play when compare to assembling a brass model. Been there done that, too. The items you mentioned could not be attempted if the modeler had not gained confidence to attempt the challenge by honing skills on less intrepid and intimidating models. I'm sure your first cars were not any of the ones whose manufacturer you have named.

I can't help but take offense to being condescended to in this way from you. You couldn't possibly know my background unless I have told you. I've built the types of kits you mention, including scratchbuilding with brass and making repairs to brass steam locomotives. I have built Walthers passenger car kits (the brass sides/wooden core kits), Gloor Craft wood kits, plenty of cardstock models and dozens of other rolling stock and structure kits, all of which came long before my time. You see, I was very fortunate to have a Grandfather who collected model railroad kits through the 1950s, 60s and 70s but never found time to build all of them. It was through his gifts of these models to me that I was able to experience many of the kits that came before I was born. In other words, I have an appreciation for what came before the blue box because I, too, have built it.

As far as my first kit is concerned, unless I mentioned Front Range in a previous post, then you are correct. My first railroad kit was a Front Range ACF covered hopper car. I actually received two of those along with a Tichy wheel car kit and a Tichy crane kit for my 14th birthday. I have to admit, it was at least a year before I attempted the crane kit. Now, I had constructed several 1:25 and 1:43 scale tractor trailer trucks by that point, along with a few aircraft models. I doubt I have any of them anymore, nor do I have that Front Range hopper, but I'm quite certain they were poorly done. It was part of the experience of learning to build a kit, which in some small way, I will acknowledge the Athearn blue box can be.

Now, to your point re: blue box vs. craftsman kits that came before them, I have stated as much in my previous posts. I believe we are in agreement here on some things, but for your generation, the blue box kits marked a departure from craftsmanship. You state here that you looked at the little effort it took to get a blue box model on the rails as a blessing. You yourself had the skills necessary to shake blue box kits together from your previous work on "craftsman" kits. In other words, the blue box kits were not your introduction to craftsmanship, they were an escape from it or they were a foundation upon which you could apply your craftsmanship.

And by the way, this feeling of relief you describe is what a younger generation seeks when they buy RTR over blue box kits. At the very least, they are already assembled, but the RTR cars are more than that. The paint quality, metal wheels, often correct paint schemes, knuckle couplers, etc., are the kinds of time saving elements that swayed you toward the blue boxes years ago. Just as then, today the experience of craftsmanship exists apart from the venerable blue box kits. It can be known to anyone who attempts to craft something of their own, be it a small detail part or an entire locomotive.

Where we are in disagreement here it seems is that the termination of the blue box line is an indication of the death of craftsmanship. The death of the blue box was as inevitable as the death of the wood core/brass side passenger car. It's just the passage of time, friend. But the craftsmen who make these models their own, who cut molds for new kits, who craft everything from tools to toys, will endure. To suggest otherwise is incredibly cynical.
 


Ryan, there was an old modeler that I remember from my teen and early years in the hobby by the name of Cloyd "Happy" Clark. This guy was a crusty old fart. I really don't know why they called him "Happy". A better name would have been "Grumpy". His layout, for its time was quite amazing. All of the buildings were scratch, as were his switches. Quality switches were really a but a dream in those days.

His head end power, as I recall, was all kits, the old Varney, Mantua and such. I remember him showing off his first RTR, as it was, steam engine. A simple thing, a Consolidated 2-6-0 Varney as I recall. But, I see fewer and fewer modelers like Hap Clark in the hobby today. I may be hangin' with the wrong crowd, but it is obvious to me of their decline.

As far as my relief at the introduction of BB models, that happened way before I started. In fact, I think the first Athearn kits came in a yellow box. Some of the big names in kits back then were Globe, Silver Streak, among others. The beginnings of my foray into the hobby did not begin with advanced kits. However, over time, I managed to garner enough courage to get a few "master" kits. The first one was a 200T wrecking crane, probably similar to the one you received, I can't even remember who made it. But it had a metal cab and frame, metal pins that had to be swaged into place, cables that had to by strung, 6-wheel sprung trucks that had to be assembled..... a tough kit for a 13 year old. Took me six months to build it. I'd piddle with it until I got frustrated and put it away. Get it back out until frustration set in again, put it away. Finally, it was finished. I still have it. I am more proud of that crane than I am of most cars I own. One, it has survived all of these years,(almost 43 years), but mostly, it was the first 'difficult' project I ever did. Would I consider it difficult now, heavens no. But back then......it was a BEAST!!!

What did building that crane do? Gave me the experience and the confidence to try something even more difficult. I bought an old steam engine, not unlike ol' Hap's shortly after completing the crane. That is the progression I see "rattle boxes" being a part of. What is going to take their place? Beats me. But, being a craftsman, a kitbasher or a scratch builder has its roots in those old BB models for the vast majority of us out there. One does not get out of bed one day and decide that he's going to be a an MRC. He's slowly drawn into it. So, from that stand point, I can see these talent modelers' numbers diminishing and, though I pray not, maybe even going extinct. The possibility is real. It won't happen right away, but 50 years from now, who knows? Their numbers have certainly declined in my 50 years modeling.

Bob
 
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