Any "Plumbers" amongst us?

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wombat457

I'm the one
Woke up this morning to a fairly potentially serious problem - NO water in the house except from one tap.

Our water line enters beneath the house from the rear. Going from the rear to the front, we have two bathrooms, toilets and finally the Kitchen and laundry. There is Heat Tape on the main water line.

We have NO water from any of the taps OTHER than from the LAST tap in the line - in the Kitchen. The heat tape is on, there are no visible leaks or breaks in the main line (at the moment) thank god.

In short, everything between where the water enters the house down to the Kitchen is FROZEN, yet the Kitchen tap is not.

My initial thought was the plumbing from the main water line to the various taps etc line has frozen.

Any thoughts and more importantly - any advice ash how to fix this before our pipes break?
 
How do you access where the lines are .. ARe they located in a crawl space?
You need to get some heat in there from a space heater of some type. If you have the use of an industrial blower type .. Be sure and be careful of the fumes. I had one in Colordo in the 70's that burned diesel - so, I would run it for an hour or so and them off for an hour.
Be sure and leave a trickle of water running so you don't lose water totally.
 
Sherrel,

Thanks and yep, we do have a crawl space so accessing the lines is easy. Each year our Kitchen Cold Water freezes from time to time, but we have never (in 20 years according to my wife) never had this problem with everything freezing. Every year we leave the taps dripping t prevent this sort of thing. Doing that this year hasn't worked.

I am still amazed that in order for the water we have in the Kitchen to get there, it has to pass all of the other outlets that have frozen, or appear to have frozen.

I may have to go and buy a Salamander, not that I want to, but may have no option at this point.
 


I'm assuming that this is an unheated crawl space. Sirfoldalot gave good advice about keeping water running and depending on how cold it is will determine whether you need a steady drip or a slow trickle. How much of your plumbing is exposed and accessible? What type is it.......PEX, CPVC, ABS, copper, galvanized? You can thaw your pipes with a portable heat source or an area heater. This can be very dangerous...........you run a strong risk of fire if done carelessly!

Since you appear to have water through the main line by virtue of your statement that you still have water at the last tap, it would seem to be the trunk lines that are frozen. You need to open all faucets and open any cabinet doors to allow heat to get to the pipes. I would recommend using a hair dryer to thaw the pipes starting at the faucet and working towards the main supply. DO NOT USE A HEAT GUN OR PROPANE TORCH IF THERE IS ANYTHING COMBUSTIBLE NEARBY!!! YOU WILL START A FIRE!!! If your pipes are a type of plastic you could get the pipe hot enough to damage it if you're not careful. Even a hair dryer is capable of putting out a great deal of heat in a concentrated area so attention must be paid to what you're doing.

Hold the hair dryer about six inches away from the pipe and move it back and forth, working from the faucets towards the mainline. You will probably be able to tell about where a frozen area starts by feeling it with your hand. Patience is definitely a plus in this operation. If you get close to any heat tape stop! Even a hair dryer can ruin heat tape very quickly. If the heat tape is applied correctly there is little chance that the water will be frozen in that area. Water flowing from the faucet indicates success. Keep a small amount coming from the faucet while you move to another pipe. Keep repeating the process until all lines are clear.

Regarding a space heater in the crawl space...........you do need some heat there to help you but be extremely careful. Depending on the size and type of heater you could easily start a fire doing this as well.

I worked at Nine Mile Point by Oswego back in 2004 right after they had a record snowfall. I was there for about five weeks and during that time they had a bunch of house fires. All most every one was a total loss. For some reason or another, the PROPANE tank was placed right next to the house instead of away from it out in the yard. Please be careful and good luck.
 
Bob,

Thanks mate and I your suspicions were mine as well - the trunk lines had frozen. I have all the taps wide open BUT will try the Hair Dryer tips and see how that goes.

Honestly, I am not 100% certain of the type of water lines but am assuming they are PVC, due to the age of the house and the plumbing. I can't really tell as the main line is wrapped in a grey tape with the Heat Tape beneath that. I have grabbed the pipes and it does feel as though the heat tape is working, at least to some degree - it feels warmish. That too is ancient and may also being wearing out - if indeed it does wear out.

As said, I'll give the hair dryer option a try and see what happens. At the moment, we are keeping the inside temp at around 80 F in the hope that will help thaw the trunk lines out.

Thanks also for your "warnings" about fires. Trust me, last thing I want is a fire.

Times like this, I miss the Aussie climate :)
 
And if you have plastic pipe, be sure that the heat tape doesn't overheat and melt the pipe.

Best solution would be a heater (WITH THERMOSTAT) in the crawlspace; but absolutely not an open flame heater.

And if you have snow on the ground, pile snow around any exposed foundation walls. The snow will help insulate. We only ever have problems when it's bitterly cold and there is no snow on the ground to pile around the foundation walls.
 
You can put heat tape on plastic pipe but it should be wrapped with aluminum foil first, then wrapped according to the manufacturer's instructions and finally covered with a layer of pipe insulation. The aluminum foil gives a little better and more uniform heat distribution and the insulation allows the tape to keep the water from freezing even at extreme conditions. Some tape has a sensor or thermostat that must be exposed to the open air while another kind has the sensor placed against the surface of the pipe.. One will have you make a complete wrap once over a given distance while another will have you place the tape on the bottom of the pipe only. One thing that is universal is to have the tape lying flat against the pipe and touching it before covering with insulation. Don't put more tape on a given section than is instructed, especially when dealing with any kind of plastic pipe.
 
Tony,
As I deal with this for a living I can tell you heat tape does fail it becomes brittle from being basically a direct short in a sense also check that the sensor (round magnet looking thing) for the heat tape is secured well to the pipe. Also you did not mention if the pipes in the crawl space are insulated as this can also fail as in becoming some critter's bedding! Along with what you're already doing and the above advise given I'm sure you'll get it thawed!
 


Thanks guys, appreciate all of your advice, I'm working on it and touch wood we will have the water back on today.

Louis,

Not a problem and things are going. Hardest part so far is not being able to flush the toilets without carrying water from the only tap that has water coming from it, albeit slowly. Not being able to wash clothes, do the dishes properly or take a shower is getting a little tough to take.

Hopefully I can get something happening today or it might be a trip to a local hotel for a room just for the showers :(
 
Gator,

We live in a 20 year old double wide so if that tells you anything about the plumbing then you know what I am confronted with. All I can tell you is that there is insulation beneath the floor held up with black plastic and the water lines are below that. They are covered in what appears to be a grey tape and I can feel the heat tape beneath that. Other than that, I can't tell you much more.

I don't know if this is relevant but our water is "well water" as well.

Believe me, my gut instincts tell me to rip the old lines out and put in new, modern ones with a new modern heat tapes system. I believe that some new heat tapes (for water lines) have a thermostat on them that can be set for them to automatically tun on and off.

If I can't get the lines cleared by this afternoon, I don't think I am going to have any option than to buy a Salamander and see if that will do the job form under the place.

The absolute annoying thing is that, regardless of the temps in the past, this has never happened before. We have never lost all of our water like this. My biggest concern is the pipes breaking or the washing machine being effected as well. I don't even know if those concerns are possible.

I have to be honest here - this is really testing my (normally unflappable) Aussie sense of humor.
 
We have NO water from any of the taps OTHER than from the LAST tap in the line - in the Kitchen. The heat tape is on, there are no visible leaks or breaks in the main line (at the moment)
Ouch. Didn't see this thread yesterday.

Unfortunately the breaks usually don't happen until the ice starts to thaw. With the blow dryer option I would start closest to where the water has some place to run to (either the open faucet or junction with the main). If you start in the middle of a frozen spot it will have no place to go but to put pressure on the pipe.

Hmmm, so with the plastic pipe the heat from the house and the heat from the tape is not conducting through the entire system. That is a disadvantage of PVC I'd not thought of before. We left the house without heat for 2 weeks over Christmas. Only one section for about 12 feet is PVC all the rest is galvanized. We did put a space heater in the well room, but other than that nothing. Granted I've probably got 10 times the thermal mass of a normal house, but despite a nasty cold snap, all was ok upon return. I might not use PVC in the future just for this reason.

How is the cold air getting into the crawl space? Could you put a space heater into the crawl space? It only has to heat it to 33 degrees.
 
I spent most of last winter living in my camper while I was working on a gas fired power plant in northern Illinois. The temperature got down to as low as -31° with MANY nights and days below 0°. I had my water hose laying on the ground during this time and never had it freeze up. I did have a problem once with the hydrant where it came out of the ground because I didn't have it insulated well enough. I was able to thaw it out with a hair dryer but I ruined my heat tape because I got the wire (tape) to hot. I couldn't see it in the dark and the wind was screaming and I was shivering and cussing. Long story short, I got the next to last piece of heat tape in Sterling, IL and redid it the right way. I prefer the tape that has the thermostat exposed to the open air with a light that comes on to show that it's working. These will come on when the ambient temperature is around 40° and it's very easy to tell if they're working ..........no light and the temp is below freezing, bad heat tape.
 
Ouch. Didn't see this thread yesterday.

Unfortunately the breaks usually don't happen until the ice starts to thaw. With the blow dryer option I would start closest to where the water has some place to run to (either the open faucet or junction with the main). If you start in the middle of a frozen spot it will have no place to go but to put pressure on the pipe.

Hmmm, so with the plastic pipe the heat from the house and the heat from the tape is not conducting through the entire system. That is a disadvantage of PVC I'd not thought of before. We left the house without heat for 2 weeks over Christmas. Only one section for about 12 feet is PVC all the rest is galvanized. We did put a space heater in the well room, but other than that nothing. Granted I've probably got 10 times the thermal mass of a normal house, but despite a nasty cold snap, all was ok upon return. I might not use PVC in the future just for this reason.

How is the cold air getting into the crawl space? Could you put a space heater into the crawl space? It only has to heat it to 33 degrees.

In a nutshell Horseman, the crawl space is only protected from the "outside" by thin aluminium siding and nothing more than that. The wind blows, and it does here living in a valley, the siding comes off and you have an instant wind tunnel. In the past, I have used a Salamander to thaw out the kitchen pipes when they have frozen due to us forgetting to let the water drip/run. That has always only taken about 1/2 hour to do and the heat was being focused on the exact spot where the pipes were freezing on those occasions.

Whatever I get, is going to have heat an exposed area of 1152 square feet X an average of 3' high. I honestly don't know if a salamander will even do that, without spending an indecent amount of money (that I frankly don't have) to do it.

I spent most of last winter living in my camper while I was working on a gas fired power plant in northern Illinois. The temperature got down to as low as -31° with MANY nights and days below 0°. I had my water hose laying on the ground during this time and never had it freeze up. I did have a problem once with the hydrant where it came out of the ground because I didn't have it insulated well enough. I was able to thaw it out with a hair dryer but I ruined my heat tape because I got the wire (tape) to hot. I couldn't see it in the dark and the wind was screaming and I was shivering and cussing. Long story short, I got the next to last piece of heat tape in Sterling, IL and redid it the right way. I prefer the tape that has the thermostat exposed to the open air with a light that comes on to show that it's working. These will come on when the ambient temperature is around 40° and it's very easy to tell if they're working ..........no light and the temp is below freezing, bad heat tape.

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the heat tape has failed as that runs for all but around 4' of the main line. My suspicions are heightened by the fact that we had colder temps here about a week ago along with wind and didn't have a problem then. Seems like this happened, quite literally, over night.

Right now, the house is being kept at an average of 78 F with all of the cabinet doors and taps/.faucets open and nothing has changed. There has't even been so much as a hint that something is thawing out. I can't believe that having such a high and constant temperature hasn't done something, especially as the temp got up to a little over 30 yesterday. With 30 degree temps, no wind and a working heat tape - whatever was frozen should have thawed out enough to allow the water to at least drip. Hell we had one instance where the cold water froze and then came back on when the outside temp was only 20 something.

Sorry guys, this is I guess taking a toll on me. I have never not been able to fix a problem around the house or, at least identify a problem so it could be fixed. Add to that the inability to shower and flush a toilet, well, my sense of humor is running very low.
 
Under the circumstances, I would measure the run of pipe that needs wrapped and go shopping for new heat tape. If you have CPVC or some other type of plastic pipe, get plenty of aluminum foil to wrap the pipe before putting the heat tape on and good insulation. I like the black foam with the adhesive edges that will seal together. Place some good quality duct tape (like Gorilla Tape) about every foot or so around the insulation to make sure it stays in place. Good luck Tony.
 
I think the best solution you could come up with for this problem is called "Florida".

Move there and I promise your pipes will never freeze again! (But your air conditioning bills are outrageous)
 
Under the circumstances, I would measure the run of pipe that needs wrapped and go shopping for new heat tape. If you have CPVC or some other type of plastic pipe, get plenty of aluminum foil to wrap the pipe before putting the heat tape on and good insulation. I like the black foam with the adhesive edges that will seal together. Place some good quality duct tape (like Gorilla Tape) about every foot or so around the insulation to make sure it stays in place. Good luck Tony.

Think you maybe right Bob. I'll let you know how I go. Oh one question if I may please. Seems like the longest Heat Tape you can buy is 30', at least around here anyway, can they be joined to make a longer tape? I need to run something 48'.

I think the best solution you could come up with for this problem is called "Florida".

Move there and I promise your pipes will never freeze again! (But your air conditioning bills are outrageous)

Skipjacks,

Thanks for the advice - but I'd rather put up with the frozen pipes than move to Florida, cost of air-conditioning or not.
 
Tony, where one ends you would start with another piece of whatever length needed. You will probably need to use a good quality extension cord of at least 16 gauge minimum and 14 gauge maximum. Use good sense and resist the urge to cut corners. I've never seen one that would plug into another but that doesn't mean they don't make them that way.
 


Bob,

So two separate tapes - thanks, and thanks for advice on the extension cords too. Where do I send the bill?
 




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