1999 Athearn Napa Promotional HO Set Value/Collectability?
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No, Eric, that's honestly not accurate. Both Lionel and AF HO products are a part of the recognized toy train market, items produced with the intent to have been marketed to children. At best, the early Lionel and AF ventures in roughly 1:87 products were largely caricatures of the real thing. Lionel's examples were also of poor mechanical quality. The adult hobby of model railroading has always been centered firmly on quality models with scale accuracy, or as close to scale as was practical at the given time and layout limitations. Lionel and AF HO products of the 50's and 60's offered little of that.
The singular exception to this situation lays with Gilberts's pre/early post-war HO Hudson locomotive and perhaps its truncated New Haven "American Flyer" passenger cars (at first diecast and later plastic). While the loco was initially available as AC, DC conversion kits were soon offered and not long after the model was issued in factory DC. These engines were of a high enough quality and scale accuracy that they were readily accepted by the motive power starved adult HO scale model hobbyists of the day. Subsequent AF items were not. The only true scale venture Lionel ever had was not in HO, rather it was with their OO scale NYC Hudson and cars. These are in fact very valuable and collectable, but are not HO items.
It is further noted that collectors of Lionel or AF HO products are normally considered a segment of the general field of Lionel/AF O-gauge toy train collecting. Historically HO scale modeling, and its associated publications, has been intended for adults and has taken great pains to identify itself as a totally different and separate hobby from the toy train hobby enthusiasts and kids, as far back as the 1950's. This is why one virtually never sees mention of Lionel and AF trains and layouts, regardless of their scale, mentioned in MR, RMC, et al. to this day.
There is a Tyco element with the actual HO hobby with an interest in purchasing old examples of that manufacturer's product, but these items too originated largely as RTR toy trains intended mainly for juveniles (Mantua being the parent company selling similar products mainly in kit form for the adult hobbyist). While the models are often crude, operate poorly, and have no actual intrinsic value, those seeking and selling them have steadily raised prices, giving them imaginary value.
NYW&B
Plus I have a lionel HO gondola car in my basement that I paid 3.00 for at my LHS. I really like the car, good manufacturing, realistic but the shop owner said it just wasn't worth very much. I informed him that it was Lionel HO to make sure I wasn't ripping him off but he was very unconcerned about it. Some pieces are, some pieces aren't. Depends on what you get!
Just like how Bachmann stuff have an imaginary value...
The value and collectability of an item depends on what people are willing to pay, and how many people are willing to collect it. You'll see plenty of toy train collectors hoarding the faux HO stuff. You'll also see collectors hoarding the Bachmann BQ23-7s.
Just because you don't see a value in the items in question does not make the item any less collectable or worth any less than what other people are willing to day.
Your main point is that technically these items are not HO. You're right, they're not quite HO. But even then, it's like arguing whether a red banana vs a baby banana are actually bananas. It's a technicality.
Perhaps it would be best to look at the overall situation from a real world perspective for a moment to understand better what makes an item "collectable".
True collectability is much more than simply that there is one person, or even a small group, out there that are willing to pay an excessive amount of dollars for an item. In the real world of collecting there needs to be an aspect of quality, or beauty, and true value, as well as a rarity or uniqueness to the item for it to command a broadly recognized and exceptional value justifiying its collectability and price.
There admittedly are folks today that collect old bottle caps, empty beer cans and so on. Outside of their tiny niche group they are simply looked upon as just more-or-less oddballs collecting old junk, not collectors that are to be taken seriously. The same is largely true of HO Lionel and AF collecting enthusiasts. At best, one can only speculate at their real motivation for "collecting". It may be an attempt to recapture a moment in their long ago youth when they once owned, or longed to own, these low-end and commonly available trains. It's difficult to say, but it is certainly not based on any logical motovation, nor the intrinsic value, rarity, or prototype accuracy of the items collected. The items may be of personal, or perhaps sentimental, value to these small circle of folks, but within the broader hobby they are looked upon as just a bit silly.
Now it can be said that the collecting of say brass locomotives, or perhaps items such as very early Mantua, or Varney, et al., locos could be justifiable as a true collection and the items certainly do have a "collectable" value. The former represent very high quality, expensive, hand-made, miniature replicas. The latter locos would illustrate products of historical significance and perhaps of even greater rarity than brass these days. But common toy trains share no such aspects and are nothing but common toy trains. So...there truly is a distinct difference in recognized collectability in a particular field and simply the acquiring or peddling of older junk, regardless of what the owners may imagine its value is doesn't establish an actual collectability.
I will conclude by saying that I'm not the least adverse to anyone having a "collection" of whatever they please. That's fine. However, by no means does it automatically imply what items one is collecting are actually recognized as "valuable collectables".
NYW&B
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Davidfd85
Member
I worked for a NAPA parts house for quite awhile. The set may have been some kind of incentive award or sales award. They used to give away allot of things at store owner/partner meetings and some of them pretty pricey too. The best I ever got was a leather jacket, it was nice though and wore it for quite awhile.
UPBrad
Member
Athearn has put the word "Authentic" on most of their packaging for decades.
"Authentic HO Scale Train Set" ... what does that even mean?
Looks cool though
Southwest Chief
Matt
Probably not worth a super amount of $.
It's a basic train set with a very basic loco. Might be more collectible to a Napa employee or general Napa collector.
It's a basic train set with a very basic loco. Might be more collectible to a Napa employee or general Napa collector.
Brad - Promotional items of this sort are, and have been, available across a broad spectrum of consumer products and interests for many, many years. I've seen these same sorts of train sets addressing football, baseball, John Deere, NASCAR, et al. in their decoration. Some get sold by the actual companies they represent, others are offered strictly on a commercial basis from supposed "collectibles" outfits. In many respects their actual collectability is more scam than reality.
The fact is that none of these sets are worth any more than what someone else specifically interested in that particular subject, team, or product, will pay to acquire them. In all probability, your set's market value is likely to be no more than that of most any other similar cheap Athearn HO starter set on the secondhand market.
Flatly put, there simply is no organized collectibles market in HO trains beyond what some few individuals personally think.
NYW&B
The fact is that none of these sets are worth any more than what someone else specifically interested in that particular subject, team, or product, will pay to acquire them. In all probability, your set's market value is likely to be no more than that of most any other similar cheap Athearn HO starter set on the secondhand market.
Flatly put, there simply is no organized collectibles market in HO trains beyond what some few individuals personally think.
NYW&B
Last edited by a moderator:
No, Eric, that's honestly not accurate. Both Lionel and AF HO products are a part of the recognized toy train market, items produced with the intent to have been marketed to children. At best, the early Lionel and AF ventures in roughly 1:87 products were largely caricatures of the real thing. Lionel's examples were also of poor mechanical quality. The adult hobby of model railroading has always been centered firmly on quality models with scale accuracy, or as close to scale as was practical at the given time and layout limitations. Lionel and AF HO products of the 50's and 60's offered little of that.
The singular exception to this situation lays with Gilberts's pre/early post-war HO Hudson locomotive and perhaps its truncated New Haven "American Flyer" passenger cars (at first diecast and later plastic). While the loco was initially available as AC, DC conversion kits were soon offered and not long after the model was issued in factory DC. These engines were of a high enough quality and scale accuracy that they were readily accepted by the motive power starved adult HO scale model hobbyists of the day. Subsequent AF items were not. The only true scale venture Lionel ever had was not in HO, rather it was with their OO scale NYC Hudson and cars. These are in fact very valuable and collectable, but are not HO items.
It is further noted that collectors of Lionel or AF HO products are normally considered a segment of the general field of Lionel/AF O-gauge toy train collecting. Historically HO scale modeling, and its associated publications, has been intended for adults and has taken great pains to identify itself as a totally different and separate hobby from the toy train hobby enthusiasts and kids, as far back as the 1950's. This is why one virtually never sees mention of Lionel and AF trains and layouts, regardless of their scale, mentioned in MR, RMC, et al. to this day.
There is a Tyco element with the actual HO hobby with an interest in purchasing old examples of that manufacturer's product, but these items too originated largely as RTR toy trains intended mainly for juveniles (Mantua being the parent company selling similar products mainly in kit form for the adult hobbyist). While the models are often crude, operate poorly, and have no actual intrinsic value, those seeking and selling them have steadily raised prices, giving them imaginary value.
NYW&B
Last edited by a moderator:
psychobeagle12
Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by diburning
There are collectible items in the HO market. Lionel and American Flyer have ventured into the HO market, and any of those products, regardless of how crude, incorrect, or downright ugly is collectible and holds value.
No, Eric, that's honestly not accurate.
Plus I have a lionel HO gondola car in my basement that I paid 3.00 for at my LHS. I really like the car, good manufacturing, realistic but the shop owner said it just wasn't worth very much. I informed him that it was Lionel HO to make sure I wasn't ripping him off but he was very unconcerned about it. Some pieces are, some pieces aren't. Depends on what you get!
diburning
AlcoHaulic
Just like how Bachmann stuff have an imaginary value...
The value and collectability of an item depends on what people are willing to pay, and how many people are willing to collect it. You'll see plenty of toy train collectors hoarding the faux HO stuff. You'll also see collectors hoarding the Bachmann BQ23-7s.
Just because you don't see a value in the items in question does not make the item any less collectable or worth any less than what other people are willing to day.
Your main point is that technically these items are not HO. You're right, they're not quite HO. But even then, it's like arguing whether a red banana vs a baby banana are actually bananas. It's a technicality.
Perhaps it would be best to look at the overall situation from a real world perspective for a moment to understand better what makes an item "collectable".
True collectability is much more than simply that there is one person, or even a small group, out there that are willing to pay an excessive amount of dollars for an item. In the real world of collecting there needs to be an aspect of quality, or beauty, and true value, as well as a rarity or uniqueness to the item for it to command a broadly recognized and exceptional value justifiying its collectability and price.
There admittedly are folks today that collect old bottle caps, empty beer cans and so on. Outside of their tiny niche group they are simply looked upon as just more-or-less oddballs collecting old junk, not collectors that are to be taken seriously. The same is largely true of HO Lionel and AF collecting enthusiasts. At best, one can only speculate at their real motivation for "collecting". It may be an attempt to recapture a moment in their long ago youth when they once owned, or longed to own, these low-end and commonly available trains. It's difficult to say, but it is certainly not based on any logical motovation, nor the intrinsic value, rarity, or prototype accuracy of the items collected. The items may be of personal, or perhaps sentimental, value to these small circle of folks, but within the broader hobby they are looked upon as just a bit silly.
Now it can be said that the collecting of say brass locomotives, or perhaps items such as very early Mantua, or Varney, et al., locos could be justifiable as a true collection and the items certainly do have a "collectable" value. The former represent very high quality, expensive, hand-made, miniature replicas. The latter locos would illustrate products of historical significance and perhaps of even greater rarity than brass these days. But common toy trains share no such aspects and are nothing but common toy trains. So...there truly is a distinct difference in recognized collectability in a particular field and simply the acquiring or peddling of older junk, regardless of what the owners may imagine its value is doesn't establish an actual collectability.
I will conclude by saying that I'm not the least adverse to anyone having a "collection" of whatever they please. That's fine. However, by no means does it automatically imply what items one is collecting are actually recognized as "valuable collectables".
NYW&B
Last edited by a moderator:
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