12 X 14 room help

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mopacbuff said:
Stein,

As far as the towns, if you look on google or bing maps, the place names are Potosi, Mineral point, and Cadet Missouri. I have no idea what the track arrangements were in 65-70 as most of it is now gone. I do know that all 3 towns had passenger stations and typical freight loads in that part of Missouri would be lumber, tiff (a type of ore), iron ore, probably some coal, livestock and general merchandise.

My vision is having Potosi be the focal point as it is the largest town (and my home town), with Mineral point being 3 1/2 miles east of Potosi (as it really is) and Cadet being 3 miles north of Mineral Point (also as it really is). Cadet would be the smallest of the 3 towns.

If it could be squeezed in, MoPac also had a branch line running from Cadet to an area called Pea Ridge to service an iron mine.
Click to expand...

Had a quick google around before bed.

In 1957, it seems like Cadet and Mineral Point both were junction towns on the north-south De Soto Sub of MoPac's Missouri Division.

At Cadet there was a branch to Pea Ridge, which was used for hauling really heavy ore trains.

Potosi apparently was at the end of a small 3 mile branch of it's own, known as the Potosi sub, joining the north south mainline at Mineral Branch.

So through traffic would run through Cadet and Mineral Point - traffic to Potosi would typically (at least at that time) be out and back.

It also seems like lead was a major product of this region.

Anyways - bedime - have to get up again in six hours.

Smile,
Stein
 
Gents,

I've been doing a lot of reading and research tonight, and upon further review, I may need to backdate my era into the 50s. This is due to the fact that I want to run a complete passenger train schedule, and MoPac was aggressively discontinuing passenger service by the very early 60s.

Of course this would have the side benefit of shorter/smaller cars and locos, which would help with my space/curve restraints. I think this era shift will also make for more interesting modeling opportunities for industries.

Thoughts?

BTW, thanks for all the help so far.

MPB
 
I'll be a vote against the over modeled 50s keep the late 60s-70s too few people seem to model a very interesting time in railroading.
 


Irongrave,

I thought about that, and now I'm leaning towards 1960-63. Should give me the best of both worlds as MoPac still had passenger service in a lot of areas. A bit of modelers license wil let me run the trains I want.

MPB
 
In doing more research into MoPac passenger operations in the 50/60s, I keep coming across photos of MoPac ALCO PAs. They're ugly, but god help me, I love them! I'm going to have to run a couple on my layout.

Will an HO PA negotiate 24" curves? This will figure into my layout planning.

MPB
 
steinjr said:
Had a quick google around before bed.

In 1957, it seems like Cadet and Mineral Point both were junction towns on the north-south De Soto Sub of MoPac's Missouri Division.

At Cadet there was a branch to Pea Ridge, which was used for hauling really heavy ore trains.

Potosi apparently was at the end of a small 3 mile branch of it's own, known as the Potosi sub, joining the north south mainline at Mineral Branch.

So through traffic would run through Cadet and Mineral Point - traffic to Potosi would typically (at least at that time) be out and back.

It also seems like lead was a major product of this region.

Anyways - bedime - have to get up again in six hours.

Smile,
Stein
Click to expand...

Finally got a change to do a little more googling and reading. Found several sites that might have more information about the area.

The seemingly most directly relevant lead for the Mineral Point area was a post on the MOPAC yahoo group from 2005, where a man by the name of Chris Ties recommended that area for someone else planning a layout, and mentioned some interesting details about the area:

"Mineral Point is on the main and had some switching operations in town. A stub ended branch line came off the main in Mineral Point and ran to Potosi to serve the industries there. The local train came out of the yard at Bismark just north of Mineral Point.

You could setup up a continuous run loop with a single staging yard to represent the mainline action through Mineral Point and still have the branch to Potosi to get in most of your switching work. The staging yard could even be done exposed and visually represent the yard at Bismark - which included a wye.

The area is beautiful as it is in the "foothills" of the Ozarks and quite rural.

Industries included a shoe plant, grain and feed operations, ore loading, team track, and many of other typical small town industries split between Mineral Point and Potosi."

Chris also mentions having done a bit of research on the Potosi branch, and that the area has been described in "The Eagle", the magazine of the Mopac historical society - you can find his email address (or at least his email as it was back in 2005) by following this link to his post on a MOPAC yahoo group: http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/MOPAC/message/14137

The place Chris mentions in the text above (Bismarck, MO) is to the SE of Mineral Point.

To elaborate on the idea he mentions above - it could be that instead of modeling Cadet - Mineral Point - Potosi, it would be smarter to model Bismarck - Mineral Point, with a single ended branch from Mineral Point to Potosi, and with staging at Bismarck representing both other lines out of Bismarck (to the Southeast and to the Northeast), and staging at Mineral Point representing north towards Cadet (and the Pea Ridge branch) and St Louis.


Some signature buildings in Potosi, Mineral Point, Cadet and Bismarck:

Here is a link to a drawing from 2003 of the Potosi depot (which looks fairly old, and probably predates the 1960s by quite a bit): http://www.missouridepots.com/bunch/potosiart.htm

Here is the depot in Cadet, pictures from 1969/70 - not likely to have been significantly changed since your desired modeling period of the early 1960s: http://www.missouridepots.com/cadetmp69.htm

Here is a photo of the Mineral Point depot: http://www.missouridepots.com/mineralpointmp.htm, same photographer, probably taken at about the same time, and a drawing of the depot: http://www.missouridepots.com/mineralart.htm

Bismarck depot: http://www.missouridepots.com/bismarck.htm

Some older pics of Bismarck: http://news.webshots.com/album/60163401lVszQF

I had a look at http://www.google.com/maps and entered Center Street, Bismarck, MO, and dragged the little man to the crossing over the tracks at Center Street to get a look up and down the main at Bismarck - looks like it probably has not changed an extreme lot since the 1960s - building styles are not super modern, but rather classical middle America.

Going to www.bing.com/maps and zooming in to use the bird's eye view over Bismarck, MO, you can get a decent impression of where the yard used to be.

Unfortunately, the images from Mineral Point are too poor resolution to allow much in the way of estimating former tracks in that area, and there doesn't seem to be much track of the former railroad in Potosi - except possibly the street name "Depot Street" - might be worthwhile to try to get some ground level pics from that area.

I would suggest trying to get in touch with Chris Ties and see what information he might have collected on this area - he might have sources not available to me over here in Norway :-)

Smile,
Stein
 
Stein,

Thanks for all the helpful links and information. I had already found the missouri depots website and am already planning construction of the Potosi, Mineral Point and Cadet depots. FWIW, my cousin (along with others in my extended family) still lives in Potosi, the old depot is still there (on depot st, of course) and is now used for storage by the city. I may impose on him to go do some measuring for me.

Based on the information you have provided, along with what I've uncovered in my research, I'm leaning towards modeling the line between Mineral Point and Cadet with a branch to Potosi (a peninsula?), using a hidden staging yard as Bismark (both north and south staging and a continuos run connection). Any ideas how I could squeeze that into my available space?

Thanks for all your help.

MPB
 
Mmm - if I don't try very hard to avoid a lift-out/lift-up at the main entrance, the easiest way of doing continuous run plus branch on peninsula would probably be something roughly like this:

mopac04.jpg


Minimum curve radius for main is 26", for Potosi sub 24" radius.

Factors taken into account for placement of scenes :

- Try to preserve spatial relationship North --> Cadet --> Mineral Point -> Potosi Sub one way/South the other way

- Aisle/work space: most of the action will be in Mineral point and in Potosi - so you need as wide as possible aisles there, and preferably not action scenes across the aisle from each other.

- Due to family history reasons, use Potosi is the emotional/scenic focus point of your layout (even though Mineral Point will be the operational focus point), so it should be located in a spot to make a visual impression on visitors - i.e viewable from the door.

- Trains will be short, so a short staging area will be okay

Have not tried to detail any of the three modeled scenes - I don't have any basis for doing so. I still would recommend that you try to contact the guy I mentioned and see if he has any more information on Mineral point and Potosi - Cadet probably could be modeled as just a simple double ended by the depot.

Smile,
Stein
 
MoPacBuff:

Interesting thread.

I grew up in Arcadia MO on the MoPac's St. Louis to Poplar Bluff MO main line; watched the Texas Eagle fly through about 7pm a gazillion times. In 1977 I was hired as a brakeman on the extraboard out of Bismarck MO, and worked there for about 1.5 years.

I switched the yard at Bismarck over 100 times, caught the 7am to 7pm traveling switch engine to the south (down to Annapolis) and back about as much as I caught the "local" from Bismarck to Poplar Bluff (usually called between 1am and 5am, and I was usually first-out on the extra board) and back (all in one 14-hour "day".)

The job I caught the least, and the one I disliked the most, was the 7pm to 7am traveling switch engine to the north - Bismarck to Cadet.

Another job I caught about 20 times (those boys didn't lay off very much) was the iron ore pellet trains (in open top hoppers) - usually just locos and caboose x Bismarck to Cadet, pick up empty hoppers another train had set out then to Pea Ridge. Drop empties, couple up to about one-half of the total loads, then to Cadet, return with just locos and caboose to Pea Ridge for the rest of the loads, then to Cadet dropping the loads or sometimes bringing some loads back to the Bismarck yard.

The Pea Ridge sub was very hilly and I remember many times when pulling a heavy train we were barely crawling, with the wheel-slip light blinking on/off, on/off, etc., and 3 large units all howling in #8 notch. Also, one night we were again crawling out with a heavy train and it was snowing. So right near the peak of one of the hills the engines were really slipping down (even with sand), and in order to avoid doubling the hill (extra 2 to 3 hours for the whole crew) the engineer suggested that me and the other brakeman (who was riding the engine) go scrape the snow off the rails in front of the moving train. I thought he was kidding. NOT! So we got out about 15 feet in front of the lead engine and literally scooted ahead of the locos (all of which were roaring in 8th notch) and with our flag sticks we bent over and swiped the snow off the tops of the rails for about 15 minutes. I remember being scared to death every second, and my head constantly swiveling forward to watch where I was going and backward to make sure the locos hadn't busted a knuckle in the the train and were about to run me over.

I now live in SW Missouri and if you want to ask me any questions or pick my brain here's my home phone # 417-777-3028.

By the way, as I remember it the Missouri & Illinois RR (I think that was the name, and it was owned by the MoPac ) interchanged in Bismarck with us. We never worked as crews on the M&I - whole separate union agreement.

Also when I went to work there the MoPac had just abandoned the DeLeseus (sp?) Branch out of Bismarck. If you model 1975 or earlier you can have an M&I interchange and a branch line both in Bismarck.

As info in 1977 there were no industries in Bismarck that we spotted.

Lastly, if you really want to get detailed, about 1 mile south of Bismarck was a farm named SunnyMeade. They provided milk for MoPac's passenger trains (all or a few I don't know) in those small (one pint?) glass jars with the cardboard pull-off lids. I remember those little jars all had "Sunny Meade Farms" and the MoPac buzzsaw both printed in red paint on them.

DougC
 
Stein,

Very interesting concept there, now if I can I can just flesh out the details, that may be what I'm looking for.

Doug,

Wow, what a great insight into MoPac operations in that area, I'll definately be in touch with you to pick your brain. I've been to Arcadia many, many times, me and my cousin used to go there from Potosi to shop at a gun store called Normas and we'd always eat at a little place called Andys there in Arcadia. There was also a great little place to eat on 21 highway called the Mimosa drive in. Some times we'd make the trip up to Taum Sauk reservouir, what a spectacular view! Great memories.

Oh, and what I'd give to have one of those milk bottles with the buzzsaw on it!!

MPB
 
Last edited by a moderator:


Hi Doug --

MoPacBuff is very fortunate to hear from someone who knows this area and the railroad!

Hope you won't mind me also asking questions - I just got curious.

You wrote:

DougC said:
MoPacBuff:

The job I caught the least, and the one I disliked the most, was the 7pm to 7am traveling switch engine to the north - Bismarck to Cadet.
Click to expand...

So how come this was the most disliked job? Apart from the hours, I mean.

What would happen in a typical day on this particular job?

Smile,
Stein
 
Hey Stein:

Since you asked.........

That 7pm to 7am job really messed my sleep cycles up. It's rough enough being on the extra board, catching mostly day through evening (Pea Ridge) jobs (never know from one day to the next) but the night job was "out of the ball park."

Another thing about it was the normal conductor was, well, somewhat careless, and one night he almost got me killed. (I'm not kidding.)

So for those and some other reasons I always tried to stay first-out on the xtra board.

MoPacBuff:

Regarding those MoPac milk bottles -

While I lived in the Bismarck area I sometimes went over to Flat River (now renamed Park Hills) and visited some junk stores. At one I found a bunch of those milk bottles, so I bought about 30 to 50 of them for 50 cents each, washed them, then later took them to the St. Louis Museum of Transportation and sold the bottles to them for about $1.50 each, which they resold for $3 or $4 each. I did this about three times. The MoPac RR Historical Society could maybe tell you where to find some.

Regarding Normas - they have changed their name to Arcadia Sporting Goods (currently managed by a guy I went to grade school with) and are now on the new Hwy 21 through Arcadia across from the old MoPac Depot (still standing.)

If you call I'd be glad to visit with you.

Doug
 
Doug,

New 21 has made it that far south? WOW, I've been gone too long (15 years). Is that old MoPac depot stone or brick? I drove past it numerous times, but never really stopped to look at it.

I'd definately like to call you sometime to bs about MoPac, Arcadia and that area in general. When is a good time to call? I'm in the eastern time zone now, so I'm an hour ahead of you.

Shawn
 
Shawn:

The Arcadia MO old MoPac depot is, I believe, made out of smallish granite blocks, and I think they came from the granite quarry about 4 miles from Arcadia near a small town called .......... Graniteville. It is close to where Elephant Rocks State Park is. Before that area became a state park me and my friends used to play there as kids. Mom would drive us up there, drop us off for 3 to 5 hours (and sometimes with peanut butter/jelly sandwiches and some water), and then come back for us. It was a very dangerous area with unused open-pit quarrys partly filled with water, and with no fences. But when you're a young teenage boy with no brains - YEEEHAA!

Generally the best times to call are between 10AM to 12PM your time and 8PM to 11PM your time most days except Sundays.

Talk with you soon.

Doug
 
Doug,

I've been to elephant rocks many times, what a great place! And to Johnsons shut-ins too, one of the most beautiful places in America. Taum Sauk reservoir was also very pretty, before the walls gave way.

I've been doing a lot of thinking/research/planning on this layout/theme for the past few days, anyone else have something to add?

Thanks

MPB
 
My cousin made it to the old depot in Potosi Missouri and took some pics for me, not very good quality since he used his cell phone, but she's still there.

View attachment 24247


View attachment 24248

Here are 2 other pics that I found online

View attachment 24249

View attachment 24250

Does that look like a slate roof?

I believe the street in the first 3 pics is the old right of way, so this would obviously be the front of the depot, anyone care to hazzard a guess as to what the back side of the depot looked like?

MPB
 
Just curious - did you ever try to get in touch with Christ Ties (mentioned in post #25 in this thread) ? From what he posted back in 2005, it sounded like he had done quite a bit of research on the area you are interested in.

Smile,
Stein
 
Stein,

Thanks for all your help, much of what you post, I haven't turned up in my own research.

I'll keep digging, I'm getting more and more inspired!

MPB
 


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