12 X 14 room help

[mopacbuff]

Gents,

I joined the forum about a year ago with the intention of building an HO layout with my son, life intervened and we had to delay construction, but now we're ready to tackle the project in earnest.

We have a dedicated 12 X 14" (actually 11'10" x 14') room for our layout and we're looking for a track plan. I downloaded and tried xtra cad, but I'm still in the learning curve with it. I've roughed out a couple of plans with it, but I'm looking for more refined ideas.

Anybody care to take a stab at it?

I'll try to upload an xtra cad picture of the room we have available. The 2 yellow lines in the bottom right and upper left corner are doors which cannot be blocked. Both open into the room, but the lower right one could be removed from the opening if it would help.

As far as the railroad we're looking for, we're gonna model MoPac in 1965-1970 in south-central missouri. HO scale, 24" minimum radius, at least 2 towns, hidden staging and a continuos run option (maybe through the hidden staging yard?).

I know it's a tall order considering the room size, but I'd be interested in any ideas.

View attachment 23926

Thanks for any help. Great forum!

MPB

 

[fast_ian]

Hi,

Do you need "easy" access between the doors?

Other than that, all 4 walls are "free & clear"?

FWIW, I don't believe in "drop downs" and "duck unders" etc, but know many will disagree....

Cheers,
Ian

 

[mopacbuff]

The lower right hand door is the access point into the room, if I have to, I'd remove the door and live with a duckunder.

The upper left door goes up to the attic, it's never used, but needs to be usable in case of repairs, etc. So the attic door doesn't need to be "easily" reachable. A removable section??

Other than that, all 4 walls are totally usable.

Thanks

MPB

 

[fast_ian]

The lower right hand door is the access point into the room, if I have to, I'd remove the door and live with a duckunder.

I see no need.....

The upper left door goes up to the attic, it's never used, but needs to be usable in case of repairs, etc...

Very cool! [I was thinking you may be between, eg, the kitchen and the garage! ]

A nice space, that appeals more than "working" on mine right now.....

Cheers,
Ian

 

[mopacbuff]

Ian,

Thanks for looking, I'd also be willing to go down to 22" radius curves, we're only going to run 4 axle units. However, we will be running short passenger trains too, but I think MP equipment for that era/locale will negotiate 22" curves.

As far as staging goes, we'd only need maybe 2 tracks for northbound and 2 for southbound.

Thanks

MBP

 

[fast_ian]

Ian,

Thanks for looking, I'd also be willing to go down to 22" radius curves, we're only going to run 4 axle units.

We don't want to reduce it *yet*!.......

Anyway, while it's certainly not "Stein standard", here's a start on benchwork that'll allow full access and doesn't violate the "30" reach rule" (much, anyway!)..... Maybe someone else can do the next step?

Cheers,
Ian

 

[steinjr]

Okay - let's try to narrow things down a bit.

You say: "model MoPac in 1965-1970 in south-central Missouri. HO scale, 24" minimum radius, at least 2 towns, hidden staging and a continuos run option (maybe through the hidden staging yard?)".

You have defined an era (late 60s), a location (south-central Missouri) and a prototype railroad (Mopac).

But what is it that you want to model? What is the theme of your layout? Any specific scenes you want to include?

What kind of trains will you be running - how long trains, how many trains at the same time and in sequence during a session? How many people operating at a time?

The length and number of staging tracks will be a function of the length and number of trains you want to run in a session.

The number and types of scenes you create is a function of your theme (also called vision or overall/conceptual design).

Are you dreaming about a mainline with lots of traffic, or a sleepy branch line? Are you thinking about (pre-Amtrak) passenger traffic or freight traffic ?

Are you most interested in modeling train meets and similar on the road events? Are you most interested in modeling sorting cars and building cuts of cars which will head out again on different trains? Or are you most interested in modeling the switching of wayside industries?

Got any prototype towns in mind as a template to get an idea about the look and feel of the area? Are you thinking more like Ozark Plateau or more like Mississippi?

Seen any layouts you like? Say the Bagnell Branch (which was in Model Railroad Planning or Great Model Railroads a while back, and can be seen here: http://mopac51.tripod.com/id6.html

And so on and so forth - tell us what your dream is. What you are dreaming about.

How to fit it into the room and how to decide what to not include can come later - the first step is to have or get an overall idea about how you want to run your trains and what your goal is.

First conceptual design - finding out what you want to model
Then structural design - footprint, aisles, reach, mainline etc
Then you can do a more detailed design

It is an iterative process - you will be going back and forth between these phases. But the question of how to fit something into the room is quite a bit easier if you know what you want to fit in

Smile,
Stein

 

[fast_ian]

......the question of how to fit something into the room is quite a bit easier if you know what you want to fit in

Is it though? I'm *certainly* not trying to argue - I, and I've noticed many others, *really* appreciate your input - This could be an interesting debate, maybe worthy of its own thread.....

But, in my admittedly limited experience, it seems to me that the 24" (or whatever) in HO minimum radius, coupled with the "reach rule" & aisle width requirements sets the main parameters on most folks layouts - There's not often many places a 24"R circle fits, particularly if you want access - Which is why I drew it as above [Not saying I'm right of course, just the way I'm looking at my mess right now ]

Again, I'm not arguing, just maybe taking a different approach so as to get some of the "constraints" out of the way first?

For sure, there are exceptions, and the "rules" are made to be broken - Just wanted to pitch that out there

Cheers,
Ian

 

[steinjr]

Did the OP actually say somewhere in his list of wishes that he wanted a walk-in layout with turnaround curves on the tables, or did he only specify continuous run, and explicitly mentioned that he could live with a duckunder if necessary?

Smile,
Stein

 

[Cjcrescent]

Is it though?...
Cheers,
Ian

It is very much easier. Why wouldn't it be. You have written down what you want, and then all you do is transfer that to paper or computer.

 

[fast_ian]

Did the OP actually say somewhere in his list of wishes that he wanted a walk-in layout with turnaround curves on the tables,

No he didn't. I said I'm not a fan of duckunders, and even noted that many would disagree with me () Given my personal dislike for duckunders and the two doors, my first attempt at continuous running came out as a walk-in.

or did he only specify continuous run, and explicitly mentioned that he could live with a duckunder if necessary?

He certainly did, and I agree, many other possibilities open up with a duckunder - I just "pitched" my 02c without one.

Again, and maybe this is the printed word problem, I'm absolutely not trying to argue but rather supply some "food for thought" - In my case, without a duckunder

Cheers,
Ian

 

[mopacbuff]

steinjr,

I do have 3 place names in mind, actual towns where the MoPac operated, but I don't plan to make exact replicas of those towns.

I'm looking for a branch/secondary type scheme. A train enters from staging, works all 3 towns, then departs back into staging. Several through trains per "day" as well. Trains will be fairly short, 5-8 cars, passenger service will be MoPac, pre-amtrak locals, 2-3 cars. I hadn't really intended to include a major yard, due to space limits, but a small storage yard would be nice as MoPac traffic in that area had quite a few ore cars.

Se basically 3 small towns with passenger stations and a few industries, and maybe the aforementioned small storage yard some where between 2 of the towns.

MPB

 

[zoegraf]

The lower right hand door is the access point into the room, if I have to, I'd remove the door and live with a duckunder.

The upper left door goes up to the attic, it's never used, but needs to be usable in case of repairs, etc. So the attic door doesn't need to be "easily" reachable. A removable section??

Other than that, all 4 walls are totally usable.

Thanks

MPB

If interested, here is an example of a simple lift up section I made for the doorway in the corner of my room that is 12' X 13'.

A strip of wood anchored to the wall to mount a piano hinge to the lift out section.

 

[SABRR]

Please see my SABRR layout thread. It goes from start to finish and has lots of useful information in it that may help you.

 

[steinjr]

steinjr,

I do have 3 place names in mind, actual towns where the MoPac operated, but I don't plan to make exact replicas of those towns.

I'm looking for a branch/secondary type scheme. A train enters from staging, works all 3 towns, then departs back into staging. Several through trains per "day" as well. Trains will be fairly short, 5-8 cars, passenger service will be MoPac, pre-amtrak locals, 2-3 cars. I hadn't really intended to include a major yard, due to space limits, but a small storage yard would be nice as MoPac traffic in that area had quite a few ore cars.

Se basically 3 small towns with passenger stations and a few industries, and maybe the aforementioned small storage yard some where between 2 of the towns.

Sounds like a well balanced vision- both achievable, and fun.

To get an idea about how railroad tracks through towns in this area look and what kind of stuff would be transported by rail in this era, can you share some more information with us about the towns you are using for inspiration ?

It sounds, from how you describe your room, like the lower left hand and the lower right hand corner also could be used for the layout, and that the very rarely used attic door in the upper left hand corner could be accessible through a removable section of the layout?

Any changes of taking the door out and turning it, so it opens outwards from the room? Some door frames are fairly easy to remove and turn around, others more work that benefit.

Smile,
Stein

 

[fast_ian]

It sounds, from how you describe your room, like the lower left hand and the lower right hand corner also could be used for the layout, and that the very rarely used attic door in the upper left hand corner could be accessible through a removable section of the layout?

+1 N-i-c-e!

I'm watching with interest!

Cheers,
Ian
PS - And obviously much more efficient use of space than my meager attempt [I did learn more about Xtrack along the way, so that's good ]

 

[steinjr]

Btw - here is a rough attempt to sketch one possible footprint for a walk-in layout with a relatively long peninsula and hopefully not too claustrophobic aisles. It would take an access hatch (or one of those topside creeper contraptions) to access stuff in the lower right hand corner, and a lift-out in front of the attic door in the upper left hand corner:

Haven't sketched in any staging yet - it is just an exploration of one possible way to fit in 24" radius curves in the room. Not at all a given that it is a good way, let alone the best way.

One big question would be the number of expected operators. That has a pretty big impact on how wide aisles are adequate, and what aisles will feel too confining.

Smile,
Stein

 

[mopacbuff]

Stein,

Great design! Way different than anything I've come up with so far, which is why I posted here for help, fresh eyes = fresh ideas.

To some of your points;

The attic door is not alterable, this house is 106 years old which would make it a major construction job, plus the arrangement of the stairs to the attic preclude the door opening out.

As far as the towns, if you look on google or bing maps, the place names are Potosi, Mineral point, and Cadet Missouri. I have no idea what the track arrangements were in 65-70 as most of it is now gone. I do know that all 3 towns had passenger stations and typical freight loads in that part of Missouri would be lumber, tiff (a type of ore), iron ore, probably some coal, livestock and general merchandise.

My vision is having Potosi be the focal point as it is the largest town (and my home town), with Mineral point being 3 1/2 miles east of Potosi (as it really is) and Cadet being 3 miles north of Mineral Point (also as it really is). Cadet would be the smallest of the 3 towns.

If it could be squeezed in, MoPac also had a branch line running from Cadet to an area called Pea Ridge to service an iron mine.

Thanks for your help guys!

MPB

 

[mopacbuff]

Almost forgot,

I only anticipate 2 operators, me and my son.

When I look at your sketch, I'm thinking town C could be Potosi, town B Mineral Point and A could be Cadet, which would put the yard out in the boonies like I want.

MPB

 

[steinjr]

Btw - here is another idea that may or may not be worth exploring for staging. This is an example of what layout designer Byron Henderson called X-factor staging - having single ended staging, but arranged in such a way that they branch out from two turnouts placed back to back.

The continuous run connection would not be through the actual staging tracks, but just through the back-to-back turnouts in the center of staging. Trains would have to be re-staged between runs - but that can be achieved by backing them out of destination staging and into source staging via the X in the center of the staging.

Well, time for bed - I have to get up at oh-five-hundred hours tomorrow for work, and as Robin Williams put it in the movie Good Morning Vietnam: "the oh in oh-five-hundred stands for oh-my-God-it's-early!"

I'll try to have a look at those towns you mentioned tomorrow, if I get a chance.

Grin,
Stein