another sad MTH TALE
- Thread starter blackz28
- Start date
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
I'm glad that I am easy to please. I'll stick with my DC, put the locomotive on the track and watch it go. I have operated on layouts that had DCC with sound, it's nice, but I have seen so many posts with problems with DCC, I'm glad that I am not interested in changing. I am a lone operator, and for my type of layout, DC works fine.
This has nothing to do with DCC per se. Not that I'm trying to sell you on DCC, but his problem is caused by MTH's DCS system. He's mixing apples and oranges. This is why I don't own any MTH locomotives. They force their proprietary system on you. You can do some basic programming of their stuff on DCC but last I heard to get full command of all functions you need to use their DCS system. They don't sell DCS decoders separately so you can't choose to transition to DCS unless you buy only MTH locomotives. Almost all of the problems people have with DCC are caused by attempting to keep some part of their layout DC or by mixing systems like this guy has done. He says he's into computers so he probably knows just enough to be dangerous. I had a friend get his Milwaukee road Bipolar so buggered up he had to take it to his LHS so the tech there could reset it on a DCS system, after which it was fine. Bottom line: Don't mix systems and you won't have this sort of trouble.
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
I understand this. I have seen so many posts about DCC problems, especially with MTH locomotives. For what they are asking for their products, you would think that they could turn out a quality product that Works with any DCC system and is user friendly. I have a friend in another state that I visit on a regular basis that is a DCC operator, and he is like you, and won't touch an MTH locomotive. They look great he says, but he has a number of friends who have also had numerous problems with MTH. I like it simple. I hardly have enough time to work on my layout, and the time and frustration to deal with decoder problems just isn't in my time budget. I like keeping it simple. MTH isn't the only manufacturer I have heard of having problems, but from what I hear, they top the list.
I had thought about DCC a number of years back, but with the help of my DCC operating friend, I found out that the cost would be more than I wanted. My layout fills a pretty good size room, but it was built for switching, and being that I am a lone operator, I rarely, if ever run more than one train at a time. He also agreed with me that DCC really wasn't necessary unless I really wanted the sound. Years back, before DCC, I did operate a number of locomotives that I has equipped with PFM sound. As the years went by, it was hard to find the sound modules, and I was having to build my own. As the layout moved forward, I needed a hand held system, and the big control units for the PFM were a problem. I discontinued using the PFM sound syatem and really didn't miss the sound after a while.
I had thought about DCC a number of years back, but with the help of my DCC operating friend, I found out that the cost would be more than I wanted. My layout fills a pretty good size room, but it was built for switching, and being that I am a lone operator, I rarely, if ever run more than one train at a time. He also agreed with me that DCC really wasn't necessary unless I really wanted the sound. Years back, before DCC, I did operate a number of locomotives that I has equipped with PFM sound. As the years went by, it was hard to find the sound modules, and I was having to build my own. As the layout moved forward, I needed a hand held system, and the big control units for the PFM were a problem. I discontinued using the PFM sound syatem and really didn't miss the sound after a while.
FWIW, I think it could only benefit MTH is they offered their decoders separately. People would be more inclined to purchase his DCS system if they were able to retrofit their existing fleets. That would also mean he would sell more DCS equipped engines. Some features would be mnice to be able to access, but not nice enough I would want to sell my entire fleet of engines, plus my DCC system, just to have them. That, added to the QC issues of MTH, and their limited support, means I will never have his system, unless somebody gives it to me. And I don't think that is going to happen...
Anyway, I've been watching the "Woes of the Big Boy" saga for some time, and I know I would have dumped that engine long ago, and got something that caused me less trouble. If nothing else, I think the OP shows a lot of determination to make his engine work like it should (or even work at all).
Anyway, I've been watching the "Woes of the Big Boy" saga for some time, and I know I would have dumped that engine long ago, and got something that caused me less trouble. If nothing else, I think the OP shows a lot of determination to make his engine work like it should (or even work at all).
DairyStateDad
Mumbling in the corner
But, hypothetically, could you put some other brand of decoder (not necessarily a sound one, either -- just to control the engine) into an MTH loco? (Although hypothetical, this is a relevant question for me, assuming that on some occasion I might acquire a used MTH loco...)
DCS is not DCC. Simple as that. MTH doesn't force anything on anyone. They are very up front that DCS is not DCC. To purchase a $600+ MTH loco is a choice and there is plenty of information available both from MTH and the modeling community to help one make the choice. MTH entered the HO market using their proprietary DCS command control system which was already well-known and proven in the O-gauge market. The fact that HO modelers can run MTH's HO locos at all using DCC command control is a fairly generous concession IMO. For my own purposes and personal tastes, I am satisfied with the performance of my MTH HO locos using NCE PowerCab. The man in the video is clearly frustrated and feels cheated, but it is well-known that "tweaking" and "programming" MTH locos as if they were fully DCC-enabled does nothing more than screw them up. Given that his loco responds to motion commands, I have a suspicion that the man either turned the loco sounds off, or has the volume turned way down. F6 toggles engine sounds on and off. F7 provides 9 volume levels... the first level is basically 'zero' or 'off.' The next two levels are barely audible.
My $0.02.
My $0.02.
Selector
Well-Known Member
Many of us tried to convince MTH to provide DC-only versions years ago, but they wouldn't listen. Their models are too exclusive, not significantly better for the price, and they are too expensive compared to BLI's models, even to Proto 2000 Series. Their version of the Union Pacific "Union" 4-12-2 is a nice model, but they botched it completely, for me at least, by making it a foobie...with an articulated frame. It really ruined it for me, and made it so much more a toy than we all really understand our scale models to be. So, for the present, no MTH locomotives of any type, vintage, or description, appears on my roster. With all the problems reported on the Big Boy, the Athearn release looks pretty darned good by comparison. Fortunately for me, having a Big Boy is just not something I desire, no matter who makes it.
Selector
Well-Known Member
You state that it is '...very difficult to program without the programmer' in reference to the QSI decoders. That's simply not true. I have found the Tsunami to be more problematic than the QSI's and I have the original QSI's in BLI steamers from 2004, the upgraded chip series from 2006, the Revolutions, and now three Titans. I can spank any decoder out there, except for MTH's DCS versions, with my Super Empire Builder, the old 'clunk' from Digitrax.
For those reading, if you have a decoder that doesn't play nice, especially on a factory reset, just dial the address "00" into your throttle to make it active, enter programming 'on the main', or Ops Mode as some call it, and then do the CV changes for a reset for your decoder. Then...and this is important...you must...MUST...shut off power to the rails. Then, restore power to the tracks, acquire Address "03", and your decoder will now respond to the new address because it will have reset.
I have a single MTH steam engine, and I have to press the F# button to get the sounds to work. It will move just dialing up the address, but no sounds. Function 6 on a steam engine will change the volume settings, and even mute the locomotive. F8 controls smoke, if equipped.
And MTH does offer "DCC ready" models now, though that phrase may be overly generous.
And MTH does offer "DCC ready" models now, though that phrase may be overly generous.
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You can get "DCC ready" MTH models now, but DCC ready is and has always been subject to interpretation. In the early days some manufacturers called their models DCC ready just because the motor was isolated. The MTH DCC ready models are still positively grounded where everyone else's models are negatively grounded so no matter what, you have a bunch of hard wiring to do to get everything to work properly. It is far from a "plug & play" situation.
All true. I don't think we want to start another MTH Hate Fest, and you are correct, there is plenty of info out there about this. I think the fellow in the video thought since he knows computers he could come up with some kind of work around. Ooops!!!
OTOH I agree with Gomez. They should sell their chips separately. I understand wanting to use the tech they had on hand (DCS) I might have done the same thing myself. But I have talked with MTH guys feeling their oats who said DCC was just a system used by "the fringe" which is clearly BS. Sell the chips separately, and if you do have a better mousetrap, people will change over all by themselves. They way they are marketing this forces some of us to live with compromises we don't want and others of us to pass on MTH products entirely. I really like their passenger cars, and own some, but I can't be bothered with a second digital system so I won't buy their locos. Still we have it better than the slot car guys, There are four manufacturers with proprietary digital systems none of which are compatible. They have no equivalent to an NMRA standard, poor guys.
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
Another problem with dcs is, it is a proprietary system that no one else can make. mth has made a mistake, (I believe) in not licensing other companies to make his product. Last year there were over 85 manufacturers of DCC equipment, and there's probably more than that now. There's only one dcs maker, and that maker doesn't even sell the "heart" of his system separately, as the major makers in DCC does. You can add DCC to any locomotive you want to. You can't add dcs to any other locomotive at all. What happens if this single maker hits a rough spot, and has to cut back on products, or if he goes out of business? Having a proprietary system in a hobby that has an accepted standard is almost a guarantee of being and remaining a minority player within that hobby.
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rodney mcgiveron
Member
G'day...Sounds so familiar..I bought an MTH SD70ACe..earlier this year ,second owner but brand new , never used..I left it for a couple of weeks , took it to a friends layout , got it out of the box all wrapped up in it's seal , and we tried to use it...not a kick , nothing...read the book to the letter . We spent a whole hour on it..then in desperation we disconnected the DCC and reconnected a DC power supply and it went with directional lights and engine noises...re hooked up DCC...not a cracker..Over the next couple of weeks I tried many great suggestions on this forum and eventually got it to run via DCC through a brand new NCE powercab..controller..So many frustrating hours , extra money but it now operates pretty good..most of my others are Athearn Genesis , Intermountain and BLI...and never had the slightest trouble with any of those...Maybe as you say MTH needs to be more accountable for such things...I hope this was resolved eventually..nice looking model though...Cheers Rod
trailrider
Well-Known Member
When I built my latest (last?) layout, I set it up for DC blocks, with almost no thought of going to DCC. But I did want to have at least one diesel with sound. So I wired the system to make use of the MRC Tech 6 6.0. To be sure I didn't accidentally hit my DC units with the AC carrier, I wired in a separate DPDT toggle on the main control panel, so there is no doubt as to what type of system I'm using with which locomotive. I've since acquired a few more DCC/sound-equipped units, but the cost of converting 50-odd DC units, as well as the time it would take to convert, makes complete conversion impracticable. I've got four steamers I kitbashed years ago, and they have 20mm Canon coreless motors, which I am told are more suseptable to overheating under DCC. As those motors aren't made anymore, I will just leave well enough alone. As I, too, am a lone operator, and run one train at a time, this isn't a problem of running multiple trains. Also, I've had problems with decoders and shorts, etc., in some of the DCC units, and different manufacturers seem to take pleasure in programming the CV's somewhat differently. DC is so much simpler!
Selector
Well-Known Member
It is simpler on a simple layout with engines that are not consisted via couplers whose drives match each other pretty closely....closely enough. However, once you get into the need to move locomotives in opposite directions, and they don't have reversing switches built into them for motor control, you must rely on blocks, and that means gaps, switches, and more wiring. You can automate some of that, but now you're adding even more cost. In that respect, if you had a large 10' oval with one siding built into it and power routing turnouts affording access to the siding, you would have to gap one of the diverging routes, same in DC as DCC. No diff. Now try to run two trains in opposite directions with one taking the siding to accommodate the other which has track authority to use the main and proceed. In DCC, that'll be a cinch. In DC, you'll find it more complicated, although quite a bit less expensive. Now add a yard, crossovers, and so on, with multiple engines, all SW-8's, needing different speeds in the same yard. The DC setup isn't looking uncomplicated now, and it's getting more expensive.
