Your opinion on some possible new products

[Chevelle]

Waaaayyy back in 2012 I made a post about a possible Tortoise alternative. Soon after that, real life took me out of model railroading and all sorts of other "distractions". Now that I am nearing retirement, I am back at it. This time with several RR products that might be of interest. If there is, I will go ahead and persue them.

ALL of these products are "smart" in that they have microcontrollers in them. They are all wireless too (Bluetooth and WiFi). They are configurable via a Bluetooth app on your phone. They can be used by the full range of railroader, from the DC and push-button user through DCC. They can also all be controlled via a WiFi network.

YM-SwitchM

• Uses a silent gear motor (not a servo)
• .57" of direct travel (no fulcrum needed)
• Completely configurable via app (travel limits, travel speed, default position, go to center)
• Powered by DC or DCC track
• Indicator lights showing which position the switch is in
• Push-button that toggles the switch from one position to the other

YM-SwitchMS

• Same as the above but it includes control of six signals
• Signals can be individually "mapped" to either switch position to be on, off, flashing
• Flash rate is configurable

YM-Crossing Control

• Controls two gates and up to 12 signals
• Supports input from four sensors (IR or photocell)
• Built-in audio amp and speaker connections for crossing sounds

YM-Signal Master

• Controls up to 24 signals
• Signals can be independently controlled (On, Off, Flashing)
• Powered by track voltage (DC or DCC), an auxillary power input, or an internal 5V supply

YM-Signal Master EXT

• An extension board that adds an additional 24 signals
• Can be stacked for an unlimited number of signals

As you can see from the attached file, all of these are in design. Prototypes of the YM-SwitchMS are already functional. The parts for the YM-SwitchM are on the way. I would greatly appreciate your input about these products. Feel free to suggest more features.

Thanks very much.

 

[D&J RailRoad]

I looked at the PDF and I can only assume that stuff is all free.

 

[Rico]

Interesting stuff, definitely something I’ll be looking for in the near future!

 

[Chevelle]

Interesting stuff, definitely something I’ll be looking for in the near future!

Feel free to elaborate on what you like, don't like, have no interest in etc. This will all help me decide how to move forward.

 

[daves68]

definitely interested i like the fact the crossings and signals are automated . would you be including instructions on how install them.

 

[Chevelle]

I looked at the PDF and I can only assume that stuff is all free.

Not shure how you came to that conclusion but about price.....

It will depend on a lot of factors. Certainly my cost of goods and cost of sales are factors but most importantly is the number of units that would sell. The cost of goods would be one thing if I sell 1000 and much different at 10,000.

The price of these items is a very legitimate topic for this thread. I would very much like to hear from the community as to how they value these products. I have little interest in designing things that are me-too products. I like bringing something new to the table but that doesn't mean everyone values them the same.

Let's start with this premise. Compare these items with things that are already available. Then consider what these do that those don't. As a consumer, what do you feel is the value added?

 

[Chevelle]

definitely interested i like the fact the crossings and signals are automated . would you be including instructions on how install them.

Absolutely. Excellent point. Given the research I have already done, it is critical that these be very easy to use in spite of the technology inside. There will be easy instructions and I will make YouTube videos on every one.

 

[cv_acr]

No thanks. Wifi and bluetooth seems over the top and unneccessary.

Using a phone app or DCC controller to punch in switch numbers to throw switches completely kills "vibe" I want as a train crew. For train-crew operated I prefer a more hands-on approach via manual switch or push-button/toggle switch on fascia. I prefer the interact with the layout rather than a disconnected computer interface for switching.

For switches and signals controlled by a dispatcher, that would be connected back to a computer, no one on a train crew has any need to control them via an app or controller.

ALL of these products are "smart" in that they have microcontrollers in them. They are all wireless too (Bluetooth and WiFi). They are configurable via a Bluetooth app on your phone.

 

[Chevelle]

No thanks. Wifi and bluetooth seems over the top and unneccessary.

Using a phone app or DCC controller to punch in switch numbers to throw switches completely kills "vibe" I want as a train crew. For train-crew operated I prefer a more hands-on approach via manual switch or push-button/toggle switch on fascia. I prefer the interact with the layout rather than a disconnected computer interface for switching.

For switches and signals controlled by a dispatcher, that would be connected back to a computer, no one on a train crew has any need to control them via an app or controller.

Excellent feedback and I absolutely understand your point of view. My intent was that these products would bring something to the entire range of model railroader. Just to add a few points....

With Bluetooth, you can only talk to one device at a time so it was meant to aid in configuration, not normal operation. Take the switch machines for instance. Via the app you can center the switch machine for installation. Once on your layout, no more sliding fulcrums, bending wires, etc. Just configure both travel endpoints and the travel rate. All from above your layout, not on your back or in a cramped space. The switch machines (now about 1/2 the size of the Tortoise) still have terminals for adding push-buttons for manual control. Also, since they are direct travel, the wire can be bent horizontally before going up through your layout for more mounting flexibility even on N scale layouts.

Same for the Crossing controller. It doesn't have to be done with sensors. The manual trigger input will run the scenario setup through the Bluetooth app.

Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming.

 

[PNKFLOYD]

Chevelle- you are showing some good concepts. But, for modelers like me, it comes down to cost, complexity and desire.
Cost is always a factor, not just initial cost, but maintenance and expansion costs for those on a limited budget. Do I have to invest in your system or buy another engine?
Complexity is not only installation, but what can it do? Does it require learning new skills? Is it hard to modify or trouble shoot without contacting the factory.
Desire- I am not likely to buy based on my old school attitude as I like to throw manual switches, paint with a brush and kit-bash or scratch build structures. I really want to spend my time on trains rather than trouble shooting something I don't understand.
My $.02 worth. Good Luck!

 

[Chevelle]

Chevelle- you are showing some good concepts. But, for modelers like me, it comes down to cost, complexity and desire.
Cost is always a factor, not just initial cost, but maintenance and expansion costs for those on a limited budget. Do I have to invest in your system or buy another engine?
Complexity is not only installation, but what can it do? Does it require learning new skills? Is it hard to modify or trouble shoot without contacting the factory.
Desire- I am not likely to buy based on my old school attitude as I like to throw manual switches, paint with a brush and kit-bash or scratch build structures. I really want to spend my time on trains rather than trouble shooting something I don't understand.
My $.02 worth. Good Luck!

Also excellent feedback. I hear you too. I am in that same boat. I really don't want to spend more time learning something new if it provides little value and locks me into something. Frankly, that is why I started considering this endevor. I thought that things were made far tougher on the railroader than need be. My goal is to provide far more functionality than existing products while making them easier to use.

As far a cost goes, so far so good. I get it. Everyone, me included, doesn't want to spend anymore than they have to but as I looked into this, it turns out that lots of times you have to spend all sort of extra money on additional bits, cables, adapter, connectors, etc. just to get things running. Just consider what you need do control a crossing, or signals at a turnout, or signals in general.

Take the latter for example. An Atlas signal controller controls ONE three color signal and sells for about $25. What if you had a board that sold for about $50 and could control EIGHT three color signals, or up to TWENTY-FOUR separate signals, or anything in-between? To get that kind of functionality, you would have to buy EIGHT Atlas boards and spend $200.

Let's assume that my switch machines with signal control will go for $35. With that you get a highly functional switch machine and the automated control of up to six signals. To do that with existing stuff you would need a Tortoise and at least two Atlas signal controllers that would set you back around $75.

If I can't price these things affordably, then doing it isn't worth the effort so I am very aware as to how important that is. On that note, I am now talking with a major model railroad supplier on a possible collaboration. We'll see how that goes.

The next version of the switch machine boards are on the way. A major improvement in the design. Virtually silent. (No servo). Much smaller than the Tortiose, even the version with the signal controller.

 

[ctclibby]

Hi Chevelle!

Like your basic ideas!

I would stay away from DCC powered devices for anything except trains. Seems that more and more manufactures are going this route which to me has issues. Even if you have multiple DCC power districts - if something shorts somewhere you would need to unplug ( or unsolder as the case may be ) each device or group of devices to find the culprit. On top of that, adding more and more devices to DCC for control could bust it at the seams which could start dropping packets or have large latency issues.

I don't remember seeing how your devices communicate. Bluetooth and WiFi come to mind although those could be trouble if there are many devices. We had the kids and grandkids here for Christmas to New Years. They were complaining that the Internet was slow. Our Internet is 500M up/down so I knew that wasn't it. Found that the wifi AP was dropping connections. That AP is a Ghz one and had 37 devices connected. Ghz is the connection speed, the throughput is lower and is divided by the number of connections. Alas, kids don't know to 'turn off' stuff they are not using. The kids didn't bring all those devices - we do have connected: printers, laptops, Fire TV's and such. Dang busy network at times! Ethernet is possible, although a 'home run' to all devices becomes a cable management issue. You might look at RS232/422/485 for comm which would separate it from DCC. RS422/485 is twisted pair which makes it resistant to external noise, and can be full duplex and multipoint.

Consider one control point for a passing siding; you have 1 turnout, detection for the CP, possibly detection for the approaches, at least 4 signal heads, 6 if advance signals on the main and siding between CP's. With your scheme that would be multiple devices that would need to communicate with adjacent CP's and possibly a host. Multiply that by the number of CP's a user might want on their railroad. Sure, small railroads probably do not matter, room size railroads and up will. Looking at my railroad plan, I have somewhere around 20 CP's on the main, with additional stand-alone devices for turnout control, detection and hold off signals not in CP's.

I don't think that you are going to program each device for a specific end user application - you probably will ship devices configured in a default configuration, then the end user will configure for their specific needs. I seem to remember MR stating there are about 200K model railroaders out there. Assume you get 10% ( maybe high ). You will need to up your game. Possibly a forum kinda like this one, but directed at 'how to' configure your devices. You do not want a ton of eMail or phone calls which will happen. Welcome to customer service!

Any thing you do is gonna have issues that need hoop jumps. You would want to do stuff that is easy to produce AND easy for the end user to deal with. Most 'good' manufactures are doing this pretty much OkieDokie for the most part but there are times....

 

[Chevelle]

Well it has certainly been a long time since my last post. Real life has a way of inserting itself in ways that push everything aside. But that doesn't mean I haven't been busy. Quite the contrary. Vintage Model Railroad will be moving forward and offering what we believe some very innovative products that are affordable yet are actually easier to use than existing products that have significantly less features.

Let's start with what will be the first two products. They are the YM-SwitchM and YM-SwitchMS switch machines. The "M" version is a switch machine and the "MS" version contains support for signals and other goodies. On to the details....

Both versions have these features in common:

• Direct travel
  No more fulcrum. The distance is configurable so it will move a small distance for small gauge layouts and far enough to support O gauge.
  This means that the switch machine actually doesn't have to be placed directly under the points! It can be just about anywhere. All you have to do is bend the wire appropriately to get it where it needs to be. If you have the switch machine set for 0.5" of travel, the tip of the wire will move 0.5" no matter how you have it bent between the machine and the points.
• No stall motor
  They use a metal gear motor under feedback control. More than enough torque for any application. No more wasted power consumption by having the motor pressed hard against a stop. Power is applied only when the motor is not in the place it should be. Far smoother and more powerful than a servo motor.
• Simple contact closure for actuation
  Just like any conventional switch machine, just connect a switch or switches that provide a contact closure between the common and the desired switch position and off it goes. A momentary contact is all that is needed.
• Manual swtiching
  A push button is provided to toggle between the two switch positions. This very helpful for testing before anything else on your layout is wired up.
• Configurable switching speed
  For the ultimate in prototype operation, you can set how fast you want the points to move from one position to the other.
• Configurable end positions
  You don't have to be precise about mounting the switch machine. The location of positions A and B are configurable. Just set each position to be just slightly "past" the desired stop point and the tension in the wire will hold it there.
• Multiple power options
  The switch machine can be powered by an accessory DC power supply, DC track power, or DCC track power. The polarity of the connection does not matter.
• Built in Frog power
  The switch machine uses solid state components (no relays) to switch power to the frog. Connect the frog to the terminal provided. When the switch is in position A, the frog is connected to whatever power line is connected to the A power terminal. It switches to the other power signal when the switch is moved to position B. How you connect your power lines determines what power is applied to the frog. When the switch is moving between positions, no power is applied to the frog.
• Bluetooth configurable
  Here is the best part. With all this configurability, setup and operation is very easy. Just press the Bluetooth button on the switch and use your phone (or whatever) to connect. With the simple app, you can set the switch speed, switch end positions, and other goodies like the layout name and the switch location. All of these settings are saved.

As I said, both switch machines have all of the above features. The MS version has more:

• Semaphore support
  There are two connections for servo or 5V semaphore signals. If they are servo semaphores, the speed and up and down positions are configurable. The two semaphores act opposite to each other. They can also be set half way.
• Signal support
  Support for ten lamps/LEDs is provided. All of those ten signal channels are independent so you can use them for anything you want. They can anything from dwarf signals, traffic lights, single or multi-light signals, etc. Each of the two RJ12 connectors has 5 signal channels. They connect to a breakout board to which your signals then connect to. If you need to, you can add splitters to the ends of the standard 6-wire phone cable and multiply the channels as needed. (Of course, any signal channels that are split do the same thing and the one channel.)

As you can see, even with all these features, the M and MS devices are smaller than your standard tortoise.

With all that information, I am positive that at this point you want to know what these will cost. To be honest, just like you, I what them to be as inexpensive as possible but this has to make economic sense before we scale this up. Let's use the tortoise as a benchmark. The standard Tortoise averages around $22 each. The Slow Tortoise is around $35 each and that one doesn't even do what the YM-SwitchM version does. The price for Tortoises (Tortoisi?) goes up from there if you want to add PCB connectors, frog power etc.

So at this point, I'd like to leave it to you, the model railroad community. Starting with the Tortoise price points, what would a reasonable price be for each of these switch machine products? Assume that they cost more than the Tortoise.

Another question. If these were available for some reasonable premium over the Tortoise, how do you see them fitting into your modeling needs?

1. Tortoise? Isn't that just a posh name for a turtle?
2. I don't use switch machines so this doesn't mean much to me.
3. I haven't used switch machines in the past but I would consider it now.
4. I have one or more Tortoises in my layout(s) now and they are good enough for me. I'd pass on these.
5. I'd only use these for times when I just can't get a Tortoise to fit or it won't do something that I needed it to do but yours can.
6. I have one or more Tortoises but can see that I might use these in the future as well as additional Tortoises. Options are good.
7. I have Tortoises but these look much better and if affordable, I would just use these for all my future switch machines.
8. I'm in! I'll use these for all my future switch machines and might even replace a few of my Tortioses with these.
9. I'm filthy rich and love new shinny things. I don't care what they cost. How soon can I get some?

I would love your feedback. Keep in mind that I'm on your side. Making a product no one wants or can't afford is a non-starter. Also, making a me-too product isn't worth it either. It all has to make sense.

Enjoy the pictures. (Next up, the crossing controller to beat all crossing controllers!)

 

[Marlin39]

I think the products are innovative, but would not interest me. I'm a "hands on" modeler, with a 13' switching layout. All 5 switches are within an 8"-10" reach and in a centralized area.

I see your products being very useful for that large home & club layout or where switches are not conveniently placed. And there are those that live for new technology that would be jumping to buy these.

Quality comes at a price, but is the price justified. Is your product that much better than what is already on the market? Is there a current DEMAND for your product over the current offerings?

 

[D&J RailRoad]

I'm looking at technology for modules.
As for the Tortoise Machine. I think they're pretty stable in availability so getting someone to try something else if they're happy with Tortoise would be a tough sell.
On the module aspect for train signals and grade crossing systems, that seems to be a poorly served market. The only realistic track signal system I've seen are home brew stuff or using JMRI. I use the Train Controller Silver on my home layout but that wouldn't work well with a modular layout. A self-contained signal system that could sense occupancy AND turnout setting would prolly steal and command that arena.
I'm currently building a 3 module system, (12') that will feature a grade crossing, using the Logic Rail Technologies boards and track signals for two blocks in each direction. I haven't settled on what I'll use for the track signal system yet but it certainly won't be IR or photo sensors.

 

[Chevelle]

All great input. Thanks. I agree with all the points made.

Certainly the Tortious has served the market well for literally decades and, for any particular layout, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I certainly understand the reasoning behind not ripping out existing Tortiouses for these new ones but our hope is that our switch machine would become the new standard for new layouts before a commitment to using the Tortious has been made and possibly for some turnouts that are added to exising layouts.

This isn't any sort of official announcement but I now have a partner which is a large seller of model railroad products. This has helped me with the settling on final requirements and the estimating of market acceptance. For that reason, there is some very good news on the cost front. We have determined the MSRP of the YM-SwitchM switch machine and I'll just say for now that it will not be price prohibitive for anyone already purchasing Tortiouses.

Also great points regarding the crossing controller. As already pointed out, to be successful, these products should be as much of a game changer as possible. The present design was definitely an improvement and would be viable in its present form but there are two areas I want to improve. The first is the audio feature for the crossing sound. It was good, but can be improved. The second is that I am adding siding management. Once that is done, I think it will indeed be a game changer.

 

[D&J RailRoad]

If you had a track side signal system available now, I would consider it for the modules I'm currently building, but it sounds like you might not be ready to sell now. I need to get these modules operational with a bit of scenery by the Timonium show in early February.

 

[Chevelle]

The Crossing Controller and Signalling Controller is in the works but they certainly won't be available for your timeframe. The focus at the moment is on the switch machine products. We aren't just making a handful. We are working out the process and agreements to make many hundreds, hopefully thousands per year. It wouldn't do a lot of good to have a great product that we cannot provide in qualtity. We also have to support them which will mostly be done through www.VintageModelRR.com which is still being designed.

Hang in there. We have a very comprehensive product plan in mind. Everyone's input will make our products even better.

 

[Iron Horseman]

[*]Direct travel
No more fulcrum. The distance is configurable so it will move a small distance for small gauge layouts and far enough to support O gauge.
This means that the switch machine actually doesn't have to be placed directly under the points! It can be just about anywhere. All you have to do is bend the wire appropriately to get it where it needs to be. If you have the switch machine set for 0.5" of travel, the tip of the wire will move 0.5" no matter how you have it bent between the machine and the points.

I do not understand this. From the pictures it looks like instead of a hole to get the throw bar through, one would need a slot the distance of the necessary throw under the points. How would one bend a wire to get this to the needed location?
Then how would one configure it as a slip switch. If the wire is a linear thing, can it be made of lighter gauge wire so the wheels of a train could bend it over slightly as they push themselves through without derailing? I always considered the variable fulcrum to be a strong point of the stall motor type turnout machines. Simply moving it tiny distances could make it throw further or with more force.

[*]Multiple power options
The switch machine can be powered by an accessory DC power supply, DC track power, or DCC track power. The polarity of the connection does not matter

If the polarity doesn't matter, could it not also be powered from an accessory AC power supply. The cheapest kind of power out there.

Bluetooth configurable
Here is the best part. With all this configurability, setup and operation is very easy. Just press the Bluetooth button on the switch and use your phone (or whatever) to connect. With the simple app, you can set the switch speed, switch end positions, and other goodies like the layout name and the switch location. All of these settings are saved.

No, that's the worst part. Is there anyway to set these without having to use an application on a pocket computer?

Another question. If these were available for some reasonable premium over the Tortoise, how do you see them fitting into your modeling needs?

1. Tortoise? Isn't that just a posh name for a turtle?
2. I don't use switch machines so this doesn't mean much to me.
3. I haven't used switch machines in the past but I would consider it now.
4. I have one or more Tortoises in my layout(s) now and they are good enough for me. I'd pass on these.
5. I'd only use these for times when I just can't get a Tortoise to fit or it won't do something that I needed it to do but yours can.
6. I have one or more Tortoises but can see that I might use these in the future as well as additional Tortoises. Options are good.
7. I have Tortoises but these look much better and if affordable, I would just use these for all my future switch machines.
8. I'm in! I'll use these for all my future switch machines and might even replace a few of my Tortioses with these.
9. I'm filthy rich and love new shinny things. I don't care what they cost. How soon can I get some?

These comparisons are only to the tortoise brand. There are many other brands of stall motor turnout controllers out there. I think the tortoise is a premium thing the way it is, which is I use the other brands. I would be looking for something cheaper than the torti. However, I would love to get a couple to experiment with. One can never really tell too much about a new product until it is put into a real usage scenario.
I decried the original Walther's passenger cars because of the price, until I got a few. Open the box, put on rails, run. Vs the changing couplers, wheel sets, adding interiors and lighting etc. wow what a difference. A whole train in 15 minutes instead of weeks of work.

 

[Chevelle]

I do not understand this. From the pictures it looks like instead of a hole to get the throw bar through, one would need a slot the distance of the necessary throw under the points. How would one bend a wire to get this to the needed location?
Then how would one configure it as a slip switch. If the wire is a linear thing, can it be made of lighter gauge wire so the wheels of a train could bend it over slightly as they push themselves through without derailing? I always considered the variable fulcrum to be a strong point of the stall motor type turnout machines. Simply moving it tiny distances could make it throw further or with more force.

If the polarity doesn't matter, could it not also be powered from an accessory AC power supply. The cheapest kind of power out there.


No, that's the worst part. Is there anyway to set these without having to use an application on a pocket computer?

These comparisons are only to the tortoise brand. There are many other brands of stall motor turnout controllers out there. I think the tortoise is a premium thing the way it is, which is I use the other brands. I would be looking for something cheaper than the torti. However, I would love to get a couple to experiment with. One can never really tell too much about a new product until it is put into a real usage scenario.
I decried the original Walther's passenger cars because of the price, until I got a few. Open the box, put on rails, run. Vs the changing couplers, wheel sets, adding interiors and lighting etc. wow what a difference. A whole train in 15 minutes instead of weeks of work.

Thanks for your lengthy response. This is exactly the sort of feedback and input I am looking for. It does no one any good if a new product does not serve its intended purpose.

Yes, a slot or hole is necessary under the points but not really any more so than a fulcrum based switch machine. The fulcrum is not created at the point where it emerges from under the points. It is located where ever it is set on the switch machine.

You mentioned that you get more or less force depending on how far you move. This is still true. You would always overdrive the switch machine just a little bit farther than the actual travel of the points to ensure that the points remain in position. The diffence is that it is not done by stalling a motor. The gear ratio provides all the staying power torgue.

DC power is typically how layout accessories are powered but I suppose you could power it with AC if you wanted to. The reason for supporting the power being connected in either polarity is so that you can determine how the frog is powered when in either position. If you aren't using that feature then AC should be fine.

A computer isn't necessary to configure this. Just your phone with a simple ap. The idea is to provide a lot of flexibility without requiring the use of knobs, switches, dip switches, jumpers, etc. I believe those can get more complicated and confusing. They also take up space and contribute to cost. The more features the product has, the more complex the process for adjusting those features.

And this switch machine is the simplest of the products we have in mind. Just wait for the "deluxe" switch machine. It supports up to 20 signals! Try determining which of those are flashing or in what state when the point move or are moved without a graphical ap!

Don't misunderstand. If the Tortoise or other switch machines are working for you then by all means stick with them. The idea behind this product is that it will provide the modeler with features not available in those other products but that doesn't mean that those features are desired by everyone in the hobby. (Of course that would be good for us if that were true!)

And of course you are right when you say that the proof is in the pudding. It has to be put into real layouts and put to the test. We are preparing for a limited run of these new switch machines and will indeed put them in the hands of experienced railroaders for testing on their layouts. We want to be sure we haven't missed anything before we make them widely available.

And stay tuned. The pipeline is filling fast. There are several more products in the works and we are pretty excited about them. Initial feedback has been very enthusiastic.

Thanks again.