What material, if any, to use as base layer?


Matthewd5

Member
Hello

Building my first layout since I was a kid...n scale 4'x8'

About 1/4 water (river and ocean harbor), 1/4 roads and 1/2 rail

I read in one book or article that they recommended laying down a green grass like top layer

It seems to me better to just do each area with its own specific base layer

Matthew
 
This is what you do.

Get the Pink or Blue extruded builders foam product at Home Depot. Don't get the white beaded foam. Its either pink or blue depeding on what area of the country you're in.

Get either 1.5" or 2" thick pieces. My local Home Depot doesn't have 2", so I went with 1.5".

For your benchwork, use 1/2 plywood for the base.

Once the plywood is down. Glue the extruded foam to the plywood using latex caulk.

Then paint the foam with latex paint, an earth color, dirt color. Brown/light brown, sandy brown.

Then to create rivers, valleys, streams. You dig into the foam using a kitchen knife. You can even use the pieces of foam to build a mountain.

See here:

P1000836.jpg
 
There is no doubt that the above methods are great, and probably better than what I have done, but, then, I'm an old codger, whose techniques haven't changed since I was a kid. I put down the 1/2" plywood , paint it with the latex paint and then lay the cork roadbed directly on the base. For mountains, etc., I simply build up the scenery around it, and use either plaster cloth over cardboard strip buildup or plaster over screenwire. Rivers and other depressed areas are built into the framework by making them lower above the floor.

Merry Christmas!
 
Thank you for the feedback

I'm gonna go with one or two inches of the pink or blue styrofoam, my local lowes only had the ship lap overplayed stuff

Gotta get a friend with a pickup to get the stuff home when I find it

So latex paint is safe? I was wondering about that, didn't want to get it layer down and glued and have the paint melt it!

Matthew
 
I would recommend against laying roadbed directly on the foam base. The pink or blue extruded insulating foam will slowly degass and in the process will shrink. The shrinkage won't be much - maybe a 1/4" over five or six feet - and it will take a couple years to get that far. But it will not shrink evenly and it will pull your track out of alignment. Your 22" radius curve may shrink to a 21-3/4" radius here or there, which may affect operation. Straight tracks may get a bit squiggly. That's my experience with modules built over the past few years.

If it's not a problem for you, press on, but be aware that this is a problem with this material. I highly recommend using extruded insulating foam for scenery material, but do not recommend it as a base for trackwork. In that case, it's better to lay track/roadbed directly on plywood. You'll also find there is less noise from trains passing over track on plywood vs. trains passing over track on foam.

Good luck with your layout and have fun.
 
You've just confused him.

All these things you just said about foam shrinking is hogwash. I've had my layout for 3 years now, and never had any shrinkage of the foam. No track problems at all. Its perfectly fine after 3 years.

Yes Mathew you can use the latex paint on the foam its safe.
 
Yes ive never heard of this problem either.

Foam does not do this, only way i can ever picture this is if the layout is in a unsheltered area, where you have drastic changes in temperature, but this usually only effects wood not foam.
 
By RCH;

The pink or blue extruded insulating foam will slowly degass and in the process will shrink. The shrinkage won't be much - maybe a 1/4" over five or six feet - and it will take a couple years to get that far.
If foam insulation was left exposed to direct sunlight there in El Paso you would see some degradation of the foam. In an indoor situation such as for model railroading I really doubt there would be a problem. I Googled it and found nothing but I admit it was not an in depth search.
 
Good points Bob. Another thing, if foam shrank like that, do you think builders of houses would even use the stuff?
 
I'm not trying to ring alarm bells or anything, but I am saying the pink and blue extruded insulating foam is not as stable as plywood. I am pointing this out because after spending a couple thousand dollars building these modules, I want them to be dimensionally stable. I don't want to have to rebuild and tear up lots of scenery again. It gets expensive. I've been building layouts and modules for thirty years, so I have some relevant experience. I am reporting both my own experience and the experiences several people who built Free-mo modules have had after laying roadbed and track directly on pink and blue foam.

I can't speak for everyone with these problems, but my modules are stored indoors. The shrinkage is caused by outgassing of the chemical vapors trapped inside the foam. Some of what I've read points to the pink foam specifically, but one of my friends used 2" thick blue foam and had similar problems. Fortunately, his modules are straight so alignment hasn't been a problem. Where the problems crop up for us is at the endplate. The track has to be perpendicular to the end of the module so that when we join two modules together, the track continues in a straight line from module to module. When the track is kicked out of alignment from the endplate, you will have an angular bend in the rails at the module joint, which could present a problem for operating if the angle is bad enough.

Generally, there isn't much of a problem with straight modules, but you may notice over time - again it takes years - some shrinkage in the foam where the foam edges have detached from the plywood frame. Where it becomes a real problem is on curved modules, especially those curves built at a minimum radius. Not only does the foam pull away from the edges, it squeezes the track tighter into the curve that was originally laid. If you were to make a repair to the track and had to cut one of the rails, the tension in the rail that's released when the rail is cut would surprise you. This track is laid at a moderate temperature and not under any kind of tension, so the tension clearly comes from contraction of the base layer.

Since we have noticed this problem and since careful measurements of modules are key to planning a large setup, we regularly measure our modules along all sides and diagonally to get the actual shape and dimensions of each module. It is through these measurements we have been able to determine the module frames themselves, which are constructed of 3/4" birch plywood (a very stable material), are not expanding away from the edges of the foam. The foam is contracting inside the module frame.

Our Free-mo group has a large multiple section module from Minnesota as well as several locally constructed modules (we're in Texas). We've set up our modules with other groups in South Dakota, Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas with groups who brought modules from Kansas, Nebraska, Colorado, Oklahoma and Texas. The shrinkage problem is widespread among the various groups, so I don't think it's a problem related to geography.

The solution going forward for me is to lay track and roadbed on a plywood base. I still strongly advocate using foam as a scenery material, so I'll simply use the foam right up to the edge of the track, but I won't attach it to the foam. Here's an illustration showing a lightweight spline design:

original.jpg


The green parts are 3/4" birch plywood endplates, the light tan is 3/4" plywood, the rose color is 1/2" plywood and the pink is extruded insulating foam (the foam piece on the near side has been omitted for clarity).

On a small home layout, these issues may never come up since you'll probably construct everything on one sheet of foam. Since it will all shrink together, it won't matter much since the shrinkage rate is small. But if you ever expand or go with a different format or even get into modular railroading, be aware of this phenomenon. Free-mo module tolerances are tight to assure compatibility among builders across North America, so for those of us striving to achieve and maintain these standards, this is a very real concern.
 
Hmm very interesting. Thanks for all the explanation of this.

However, I have a fairly large layout. 12'x15' plus an additional 9'x9' room next to it. I have several sheets side by side, all glued to the plywood, and like I said, I have not noticed any shrinkage, or any track issues.
 
RCH, this is something that I will certainly look into much closer before I start my layout. I will admit, though, that I was planning something similar to what you have done, whereby I would use plywood as the track base and use the foam as filler between areas of track.

Definitely something I will keep in mind, thanks.
 
I'm doing a 4'x8' and I'm thinking of doing a plywood sandwich, 3/4" plywood as the base, then 1" styrofoam and then 1/4" plywood on top

I need to cutout a medium sized river pretty much down the middle ending at a bay/harbor

It'll be a bit of a pain cutting the 1/4" plywood to match the water feature cut in the foam but I like the idea, should be a bit easier to paint, but a little bit harder to stick in landscaping elements

I plan on putting all of my structures on 1/16" plywood from a craft store rectangles/squares etc to keep things flexible location wise

Matthew
 
The blue foam board from Home Depot works great, it is very good, the white foam sucks for anything but mountains, my friend (the genius he is with a few beers in him figured out that if you're forming mountains with the white foam you can use rubber PVC cement to melt the shapes. Pretty custom look as well.
 
Good points Bob. Another thing, if foam shrank like that, do you think builders of houses would even use the stuff?

ProbAbly not the best example, in my experience with builders is that they would probably stuff old newspapers into the walls for insulation if they could get away with it...

So the best bonding between pink or blue stuff is caulk? Anything more specific as to the exact brand or type? I've seen a bunch of railroad specific ones but that's just markup as fAr as I can see

Matthew
 
So the best bonding between pink or blue stuff is caulk?
Matthew

Matthew,

I'll second the use of caulk. I used it to attach the cork roadbed to the base and used clear latex adhesive caulk to attach the flextrack to the cork roadbed. For attaching the foamboard to the plywood, I've had good luck with Loctite PL300 Foamboard Adhesive. It applies with a caulking gun and can be spread with a putty knife. In spite of the shrinkage I've experienced, where I attached the foam to the plywood frame it is still on there to stay.

I also used the PL300 to laminate several pieces of foam together to make hills and it's pretty solid. On this module, the 1" thick foam pieces were stacked vertically like books of various heights to form the sloping hillside and rock cut. The highest point at the rear of this view is up to 14" above the railhead. The detailed rock faces were cast in Hydrocal and glued to the foam with more caulk.

large.jpg


On this module, I stacked the pieces like layers of a cake and after the adhesive had cured, carved them into the highway abutments. The highway abutments were smoothed out and covered in DAP joint compound to look like concrete.

large.jpg
 
So I see some beautiful pictures, did those start with bare pink or blue foam?

My biggest question is what base color, if any, did you use?

My impulse is to start with a light brown but I haven't read much about primer paint layers

Matthew
 



Back
Top