Walthers Passenger Woes

[Rico]

Woo Hoo!
Walthers has a great sale on streamlined passenger cars, regular $52.00 Canadian $ now on for $17.00!
http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/bargain_home
Only thing is they won't run on my layout.
The first problem is that the belly tanks are so low they catch on my transitions from grade to level track. Okay, so I need to adjust the trackwork.
The second problem is keeping them on the rails.
I first added some weight, that helped a little.
Then I changed the wheels to "36 IM's. (Trickey thing to do, insulated wheels have to all be on the same side) Helped them roll better, but still no go.
Then I recalled my Walthers Great Dome car in my business train.
I had to remove the pickup plates used for lighting from under the car so the trucks would swivel and rock freely.
Now I do intend to use Rapido Trains Easypeasy lighting so I wouldn't miss the pickups, but before I start tearing things apart I thought it wise to seek out opinions from previous users.
Any thoughts?
Oh and by the way, no other cars in the fleet have problems on the layout including Walthers Superliners.
Thanx!

 

[Espeefan]

Where are the cars derailing, and what's your minimum radius? I have tons of these, both lightweight and heavyweight, and the only issues I ever see with them occur with poor trackwork. Make sure your minumum radius is in line with the car's minimum radius (it's on the car's box, the instruction sheet, or both) If you're trying to swing these things around 18" or 22" radius curves, well, that's likely your problem. Many of their passenger cars are recommended for 24" minimum radius. For running on tighter curves, you may have to do some surgery.

 

[Rico]

The curves are between 28" and 30" and the mainline is all code 100 with Peco turnouts.
I do have some areas where the track undulates a little and I'm working on them.
I did find a small kink in one curve today that the other equipment seems to deal with so it hasn't shown up untill now.
Do your cars have the same split trucks with the "four screw" electrical pickup?
I noticed my Superliners do not. I would think the screws make for a three point contact system that prevents rocking?
Thanx!

 

[Espeefan]

The curves are between 28" and 30" and the mainline is all code 100 with Peco turnouts.
I do have some areas where the track undulates a little and I'm working on them.

OK so you have the radius covered, and Peco has pretty good turnouts. One thing to check: Take the trucks off the cars and set them on the track. Look at the wheels and make sure all 6 are on the rails. It is possible to get them out of square and have one or more wheels riding high which will promote derailing. I would not have replaced the factory wheelsets but to each is own. If you pulled the metal lighting contact tabs you have a real problem, as the truck screw heads can catch the empty holes and bind the truck. A club member did this and ended up replacing them all. Those spring pads are also part of the car's suspension. The cars will not rock with this setup, at least mine don't.

Do your cars have the same split trucks with the "four screw" electrical pickup?

They do, and aside from the odd out of square truck, they run fine. To re-square the trucks, with the trucks off the car, loosen all four screws. Set the truck on the track, and press down on the side frames to get all 6 wheels in contact with the rail. Hold light pressure on the truck with one hand and tighten the four screws with the other. See how that works.

Also look out for S curves!

Good Luck!

 

[diburning]

are they 6 axle trucks? Check the innermost axle (the one closest to the center of the car) on each truck while the car is on the track. Does it sit correctly on the track? I've noticed that Athearn and Walthers passenger cars with 6 axle trucks have this issue and the wheels not sitting on the track will catch switches and rail joints and derail the cars.

 

[Rico]

They are two axle / four wheel trucks.
I think I may have found one of the problems, when I lift one end off the track by the truck and turn the truck it feels like it wants to self center.
With the car on its back putting slight presure on th truck while turning it you'll feel it "lift" from side to side. I discovered the top has almost a channel that fits over the sill and has to climb out to pivot.
I'm going to see if I can modify it somehow.
Got the trackwork tweeked and the cars still don't want to take corners so I'll be taking them down to the club layout this coming Monday night.
Thanx for the help thus far!

 

[RexHea]

Don't know if this is your problem, but it is something I ran into with some of the older Walthers Passenger cars. (I worked for a year trying to find the problem to my derails.) If nothing else, maybe you can get an idea.

 

[NYC_George]

I have found that the first cars that Walther’s produced the 73’ Budd coaches are the best. They have the metal wheels and trucks and by far run the best, no derailments we these. The smooth sided and heavy weights cars seem to be the worst. There always derailing good track or bad. If you looked at my 16 car 20th Century Limited video you’ll notice most of the 16 cars are the Budd 73 footer. I threw in a couple gray smooth sided cars just so the train doesn’t look to bland. I had to change the coupler height of the smooth sided cars though, they don’t match the streamliners. With just a couple smooth sided cars, a dinner, a sleeper and the rest the first produced Budd streamliners everything works fine. The Budd streamliners are on sale for $19.95.

NYC_George

 

[Espeefan]

I have found that the first cars that Walther’s produced the 73’ Budd coaches are the best. They have the metal wheels and trucks and by far run the best, no derailments we these. The smooth sided and heavy weights cars seem to be the worst. There always derailing good track or bad. If you looked at my 16 car 20th Century Limited video you’ll notice most of the 16 cars are the Budd 73 footer. I threw in a couple gray smooth sided cars just so the train doesn’t look to bland. I had to change the coupler height of the smooth sided cars though, they don’t match the streamliners. With just a couple smooth sided cars, a dinner, a sleeper and the rest the first produced Budd streamliners everything works fine. The Budd streamliners are on sale for $19.95.
NYC_George

Interesting George I have the following assembled from Walthers cars with a few brass cars mixed in:

A 1938 heavyweight Super Chief, all Walthers except the club lounge (AHM) and the parlor lounge car (brass)

A 19 car SP Lark with all Walthers cars except the head end cars, the triple unit diner lounge, the Observation car, and one 13 DBR sleeper (nobody is likely to ever make these in plastic )

The original Walthers Super Chief with enough extra sleepers to make a prototypical consist.

A boatload of heavyweights that will eventually be a heavyweight Imperial or Overland.

Four Santa Fe heavyweight coaches that I use in commute or regular service.

Eight UP lightweights that will be mixed in with the new Walthers "City Train" series. (I had the idea before they did ). I will do some mixed consists of this newer equipment with some brass 1941 "City of..." cars.

I have had very few problems and could trace all of them to trucks out of square from re-assembly after painting or coupler height issues when mixing with brass cars. Both of those problems easily fixed. Wonder what's different about our operating environments?

I had to buy undecs for that Lark train and had the cars completely apart for painting. That was fun

 

[Espeefan]

Don't know if this is your problem, but it is something I ran into with some of the older Walthers Passenger cars. (I worked for a year trying to find the problem to my derails.) If nothing else, maybe you can get an idea.

Rex, did you remove the metal lighting pickups?

 

[RexHea]

No Alan, I kept them in. Everything was put back in place during reassembly. I used the lighted kits for a long time until electrical requirements (short reverse sections) required me to remove them.

So many times I thought about bouncing these cars off the wall and then I finally felt that bump when turning the truck. The derailment was very intermittent and hard to pin-point the cause. Now...safe riding for the passengers and lower liability insurance rates .

 

[Espeefan]

No Alan, I kept them in. Everything was put back in place during reassembly. I used the lighted kits for a long time until electrical requirements (short reverse sections) required me to remove them.
.

Odd. They normally protrude below the slots as they are actually part of the car's suspension. We have the same problem at the club, with reversing sections that is! Prototypically long passenger trains require longer ones than most people have, and our passenger station throat trackage was designed, laid, and ballasted before these cars came to market. We have had to install special reversers, which was only partially succuessful on the east entrance. The west entrance is ok. This has resulted in club owned trains having to have the Walthers wheelsets removed, plastic screws put in the trucks, and IM wheelsets used to prevent shorting. Member owned trains are not required to be modified like this but must stay out of the depot or use the west entrance only.(we have a stub end depot). Here again, this is to accomodate our trackage, not because of problems with the cars. One member took out the metal pickup tabs in an early attempt to fix this and ended up with the problem you describe.

 

[Rico]

Thanx Rex, that's exactly what I was thinking about doing!
They're beautiful cars and I can't stand the thought of them sitting in the display cabinet.

 

[RexHea]

Your more than welcome, Rico . BTW: these are the Budd cars and I purchased them about 3-4 years. Not sure when they were actually made. All I can say is take a look at them and see. It won't hurt the operation to do this even if it doesn't solve the problem.

Alan, the plates never were high enough and the screw heads would cam on the area I trimmed. I tried to form them up more but that was a bad idea. Almost couldn't get them back in operable shape. A few years ago when I posted this solution on Trains.com, several chimed in and said that truck problems were common with that release and were glad to get the info. I don't know about that, but these are very nice cars and I wish that I could afford more. However, my modified cheapy IHC's, while not detailed worth a hoot, run extremely well with the metal wheels and coupler replacement...good'nuf for now .

I had to go with short reversing sections because of my block detection. It would eat up an entire section (4 detectors) of the Digitrax BDL168 detector board if I used detection within a reverse section, so I chose to shorten the section so detection wouldn't be critical. I also modified my trucks in the same manner as you guys.

 

[Rico]

Well I took the cars down to the club last night for another test run.
The good news is that they derailed there, meaning it's not entirely my trackwork at fault. The bad news is is that they derailed period!
By a strange coincidence another member brought his newly aquired cars as well and history repeated, they had a hard time negotiating the rails.
A third member has the older version of the cars with no power pickup screws and they run fine, so looks like some surgery is called for.
(Thank goodness they were on sale!)

Another question: do you think older walthers trucks would solve this, or do they not have the lowered center to clear the sill beam?
If the switch is possible it would save much headaches!
Thanx again!

 

[RexHea]

....so looks like some surgery is called for.

Rico, does that mean you haven't worked on the bottoms, yet?

As you said "they are beautiful cars", so I would keep going with trying to solve the problem. Don't know how many times I was frustrated enough to give up and use them for a baseball off the walls.

When you hold them and turn the truck, didn't you say you felt a bump. That shouldn't be and the trimming I suggested should get rid of it. Otherwise, I would look for something else "catching" it.

Another test with the truck only: After you have aligned the carriage, put the truck-only on the rails and shove it. Does it stay on the rails? Does it free-roll? If it does, then you are back to something on the body that is throwing it off. Note: Just putting the truck on the rail and tightening the screws does not necessarily align it. It helps, but it still can be skewed and only a small square can get it "near right".

Sorry, can't answer your question about the truck swap. Not sure what differences there may be.

 

[Espeefan]

Note: Just putting the truck on the rail and tightening the screws does not necessarily align it. It helps, but it still can be skewed and only a small square can get it "near right".

Weeeeeeeellllll now, everyone does their own thing their own way I guess. That method has worked very well for me. I do loosen the screws first so that the assembly is floppy, and then tighten the screws while applying gentle pressure (just hold it in place checking that all 6 wheels are in contact with the rail, don't press hard). Test roll when complete. It should also be noted that no amount of fiddling will help if your track is below par. The full length cars are unforgiving of iffy trackwork. They'll find every mistake you or your buddies made! Look for vertical curves, they're the worst!

Not sure about the older trucks either. You mean older trucks of the same type, or older trucks from other Walthers products? (don't think that'll work!)

 

[RexHea]

Whoa! Didn't mean not to use the rails for assembly and getting in the ballpark, but just putting the truck on them and pushing the wheels to rails does not make the truck square. It is still possible for a side to be farther ahead than the other. A check with a small square will insure the sides/wheels are parallel with each other. (Sorry, but this truck design is a PIA! )

One other thing I thought about, even though with his large radii it shouldn't happen, make sure that the end diaphragms are not snagging each other. I also had this problem in an area that had an iffy 24" radius.

 

[Rico]

Thanx guys!
Rex, no I haven't done the trimming yet, thought I'd try running elsewhere first.
Might just slate the cars for surgery this weekend.
Al, yeah I tried adjusting the screws and all too.
By older trucks I mean the ones prior to the latest release with power pick up screws.
The older version of these cars seem to have no problem but I suspect they won't clear the sill like the newer ones..
As for the trackwork I tweaked a couple spots where the level was off and resoldered a piece of flex in a curve. Funny I've never had the Superliners complain about it...

 

[Rico]

Well the surgery went well and the cars all seem to be tracking all right, thanx Rex!
Had a few uncoupling issues on the odd car afterward, turned out to be bent trip pins I believe. I cut them off on most cars anyway so easy fix.
Also had one car that needed a little trim where the inner wheels were hitting the sill beam.
Went back to the LHS and picked up a couple more cars as well. (I'm a sucker for punishment!)
Now I need to find a dome observation... I know Concor made one, maybe BLI?
Thanx again for the help guys!

A quick note: Spent this morning grinding down the belly tank on the coach. I couldn't figure out why it "hit the brakes" on some curves until I got right down track side and noticed it was rubbing on the inside rails. Same coach I observed rubbing guard rails on grade transitions. I think I'm done now!