Upgrade Pre-war Lionel to DCC


Hutch

Well-Known Member
I found decoders already but I don't know what I need to control them. I'm coming from HO with DCC which I sold. I just bought a 1666 80year old O gauge set and want to modernize the control of it. A little step by step would be helpful.
 
I found decoders already but I don't know what I need to control them. I'm coming from HO with DCC which I sold. I just bought a 1666 80year old O gauge set and want to modernize the control of it. A little step by step would be helpful.
these are TMCC decoders? The only real option in the "new" market is Lionel's Legacy control system. They call it a "Command Set" #990. It comes with a power supply, controller, and one remote throttle. You can add additional cabs (they call expansion sets) as you add locos. They designate cabs by number CAB-1, CAB-1, CAB-3. They also seem to be plentiful on the used market (aka ebay).

It can control straight AC, TMCC, as well as the legacy decoders. Some say it provides better control the TMCC better than the original TMCC system did.

Here is a picture of the box of mine.....
https://modelrailroadforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/have-you-seen-this.29529/post-453001
 
I will probably never own a Legacy set. They're way out of my budget. Being an electronic tech and programmer, I'm considering designing and building my own set. I may even live long enough to complete it :cool:
 
I will probably never own a Legacy set. They're way out of my budget. Being an electronic tech and programmer, I'm considering designing and building my own set. I may even live long enough to complete it :cool:
The second half of that is my problem. I started a Bruce Chubb CMRI system way back when he first introduced it (1980s?). Still have parts all over the place that are not assembled into a working system. I started a control system for slot cars that tracked fuel consumption, tire wear, and the like to force pit stops based on driving style using an Atari 400 computer. It was pretty cool but never had time to refine and finish it, now a company called SCR makes them. Oh for living long enough to get through the projects list.
 
Ok lets correct some statements here.
First, the boards that use TMCC are from ERR and use the TMCC command set. 2 rail DCC systems won't work on the 3 rail s far as I know.

Since ERR uses TMCCs you DON'T need a Legacy controller (which are going for ridiculous amounts right now as the "Hells Gate" legacy controller has been delayed). Legacy command stations are only required to access all of the Legacy functions in locos equipped with Legacy (a quillable whistle for example).

I have MTH's DCS and the Lionel Trainmaster Command Set with a CAB-1 remote and a Command Base I have connected at the same time
The Command Set is Lionel part # 6-12969 Even these are going for ridiculous prices right now. last year they were about $120. This year, because of the delay with the Hell's Gate system, they've even shot up to around $300

They are no longer made, but watch ebay and Trainz.com for used ones.

Until then, you can use your transformer and preferably a 6-5906 sound activation button m(or 2 with one wired backwards. Gives you a whistle and a bell button if your transformer doesn't have those).

Be sure to fuse the wire from the transformer to the center rail or use a MAGNETIC zero delay circuit breaker (not a thermal breaker) to protect the electronics in the locomotive.

There are some Lionel authorized service reps on modeltrainforum.com that are always willing to help.
 
I want my train to run on DC instead of AC. I read in an older thread that these are universal motors and will run on either. I just tried applying DC to this prewar 1666 and nothing happened. What am I missing?
 
I can't even get it to work with the AC transformer so I'm guessing there's something in the E unit that it needs.
I presume you are talking about before you install the decoder. Just straight loco on straight AC power?

If so, have you tried manually changing the direction relay. Some of them can get "locked" into the neutral position.
 
I finally got the e unit reassembled yesterday but haven't wired it in yet. I don't understand how the motor could be in neutral . Anyway, I'll get the e unit wired up today and see where I'm at then.

I really want to run some dcc trains, if I can't modify this then I want a second loop with something that can easily be modified. I have all the electronics I hand built using MERG kits from my HO days and want to use them. Suggestions for a close match to my O27 gauge would be appreciated.
 
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Had to take the e-unit apart again as the contacts weren't meeting on one set. I can't seem to repeat what I did! This is a real bear to do without specialty tools. I spent almost 2 hours on it. I'll try again tomorrow or just buy another rebuilt and be done. Or, does someone here do rebuilds if I send to them?
 
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I found decoders already but I don't know what I need to control them. I'm coming from HO with DCC which I sold. I just bought a 1666 80year old O gauge set and want to modernize the control of it. A little step by step would be helpful.
Sorry to say, but you probably won't be able to convert any prewar/postwar locos to DCC.

Two main problems: For one, you need to be able to electrically isolate the motor from the frame. The big problem here being, the entire locomotive frame also doubles as the electric motor frame. They're not split up where you can isolate one from the other.

And secondly, I'm pretty sure that DCC decoders are designed to work with DC motors, and not AC motors.

That being said, I believe that when the fancy, modern control systems were developed by Lionel and MTH, they had to switch over to DC motors in order for their control systems to work properly. With that in mind, you may be better off trying to convert one of these later loco's to DCC.

Just guessing at this, others with far more electronic knowledge than I would be more than welcome to jump in and clarify.

Hope this helps.
 
Two main problems: For one, you need to be able to electrically isolate the motor from the frame. The big problem here being, the entire locomotive frame also doubles as the electric motor frame. They're not split up where you can isolate one from the other.
I was thinking of suggesting to try and re-motor it, didn't realise the frame is part and parcel of the motor, that's a bugger.:(
 
To change the direction of an AC motor one has to reverse the "polarity" of the motor's magnets. So Lionel and American Flyer use a circular or rotary switch triggered by a coil (that is what I am calling the relay). With each power application the coil triggers and flips to the next setting. Forward, Neutral, Reverse, Neutral, repeat... There should also be a manual lever on it that can if moved the one way (advance) it forces the switch to the next setting. If moved in the opposite way (lock) it prevents the coil from tripping keeping it in one setting - usually forward. If that switch is not all one way or the other one can get unpredictable results. Or if moved to lock position in neutral, that loco is going no where.

On steam locos this switch is usually right in front of the cab on the top. On diesels I don't know. The SD9 has it poking out the bottom.
 
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