"Talk me out of it!"


What's it all about

It's all about having fun. If we take things too seriously then, are we enjoying the hobby ? I still have a lot of track on bare plywood. I don't like to rush anything. When I work on my layout I really make a mess so I've taught myself to clean up the cluter on the first of every month. With the cluter gone you have a completely new attitude. I does work !

Larry
 
Rex - I don't like the new duckunder either, but it's my only option; tacking the new staging onto the existing 'pass-thru' staging track will introduce reach problems. At least it's only a single duckunder - I originally thought I needed two, and that's what led to my starting this thread!

Larry - I heartily agree with you! But for me, a large part of the 'fun' is having other modelers visit my layout and operate on it. If I make it too difficult for people to get around, they won't want to visit.

Chip,

Fisrt let me clarify: The operator of a point-to-point [or any other] mainline train is NOT officially supposed to do his assigned job from either of the two "pits" (this is DCC remember! :D). With that in mind, I've decided that the left side view blocker needs to stay, and here's the reason:

That wall gives my layout a whole extra region. Eliminating it and using the Chandler tracks for pass-thru staging, would not only force me to sacrifice the town of Chandler (which is supposed to be at the opposite end of the visible route), I would also lose my favorite point-to-point
operation: the coal-mine-to-mill turn. The view block keeps the mill visually separated from the tracks where I need to do my loco runaround, when pointing the loaded coal train in the opposite direction. Doing that runaround without the view blocker would make it seem like the steel mill is right beside the mine instead of 100 miles distant.

One thing I've decided NOT to do is erect a tall view blocker between the pass-thru staging tracks and the mill arrival/departure yard - that way they'll just look as if they are part of the overall yard complex. Then mainline train operators will never (in theory) have to enter the "pit" to finsh guiding their trains onto the A/D tracks.

I've made up some diagrams to illustrate my strategy. The bright-green circles with triangles in them represent the operator looking in the direction which the triangle is pointing. The numbers beside them indicate the position sequence as the train moves around the layout.

Every non-coal Mll Turn originates at the new staging yard, and moves in a general counter-clockwise direction. In the first diagram, with the oerator in position #1, he has a clear view of the staging yard [ven though he is on the opposite side of the duckunder] He then ws the train along the Chandler section till he reaches position #2:

ironbelt_w_staging_pt01a.gif



Rounding the first bend, the train enters the Fagans Corner/East Minister subsection. At position #3, the operator can view the train on both this and the Chandler subsection, walking along to position #4:

ironbelt_w_staging_pt02a.gif


Now the train enters the final stretch of mainline it will occupy - East Minister to Conneaut. The operator follows the train from position #5 until it enters the steel mill arrival track near position #6:

ironbelt_w_staging_pt03a.gif


Continuing around the outside walkway, the operator can view his train as it continues into the steel mill arrival/departure yard, following it as far as position #8; at that point the mill yardmaster takes control of the train:

ironbelt_w_staging_pt04a.gif


For a train making the return trip from the mill to staging, the sequence is reversed from position #7 to position #1.

Note that during this entire sequence [1 to 8], the operator was NOT REQUIRED to duck under or lift out any track sections.

Of course you know and I know, people are going to duck under whenever it it convenient for them. However if I have a "back challenged" visitor, I or some other able-bodied visitor can always help with the staging or re-railing.
 
I can respect your position.

However, I will mention that what I suggested actually lengthens the route to Chandler and at the same time adds an interchange. So the run from the mine to mill could involve a set-out and or pick-up to staging as part of the route. 7-8 would be Chandler (viewblocked behind your yard) and following your route to the mill--> interchange-->2-->3--> etc.
 
I want to say I'm impressed by your explanation and diagrams. It makes it much easier to talk. I'm tempted to ask you to email me your XtrkCAD file so I can show you exactly what I am seeing. However, I fear that I might not get to it for a while--deadlines.

Also I am aware, that I am thinking almost without regard to your time and money. Rather I'm trying to see possibilities given your constraints.
 
EDIT: Well, I was a little slow and you guys got ahead of me, but here it is anyhow.

Ken/Chip: Chip, you have made a good suggestion and he certainly doesn't need to tear out the complete layout when some easy modifications would help. When thinking of long term effects, I would suggest that working out a plan to change the routing of existing track would be more in line in solving the problems.

If his freights are originating in the new staging and looping the layout on to the mill, it would appear that he has to come out of one pit or the other anyhow for manual switching. Removing the view-blockers would only eliminate part of the problem, create a clash of his existing scenery, and remove the illusion of distance.

Ken: I see two main obstacles: a need for 36" radii, duckunders. The only way I see to eliminate both in an "E" configuration is to have a dogbone. First do you have room for mushroomed ends on the peninsulas?

Now for another quicky idea.
Scenario using Turn(around) Freight (not a p/p):
1. Freight leaves new staging down outside mainline to bottom of "E"
2. Follows mainline to end of peninsula around end-loop.
3. Back into peninsula on inside of viewblocker (pit side)
4. Through coal mine (?) area.
5. Behind vertical view blocker (outside).
6. Up and around to top rung (or arrival track) of Interchange yard.
7. Local switcher removes cars and places them in yard. Sets up turn train for return to stagging.
8. Freight leaves yard to the right bottom end of top penisula through loop.
9. Comes out of loop on the top of E (pass-thru staging).
10. At junction with spur to stagging throat, backs train in.

All of this is on condition there is enough room for the mushroom ends added to the E and that 36" curves can be fitted. Also, if a PtoP run is wanted then the top mushroom could be eliminated by TurnTables both ends of run and then you could use only one/same track...but no railfanning.:) Mushrooms would also give you more area for two additional towns/locations.
 
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Thanx for the feedback guys, keep it coming - every little bit helps! :D

Chip,

I think I missed the part about relocating the Chandler view blocker and sidings to separate the A/D yard form the mainline. I'm a bit reluctant to tear up and re-lay any existing trackwork at the moment though. And it still causes my coal mine spur and steel mill to appear as though they're in the same neighborhood! About the XtrkCAD of my layout: I'll create a ZIPfile of that and email it to you from my home 'putor (can't use the office laptop, it tries to encrypt everything!). Then you can mark it up / rearrange it at your leisure.

Rex,

What you've proposed is excellent for a long-term solution - in fact I even have a copy of the Kalmbach PDF that describes helix construction! But I'm simply not ready to undertake a re-engineering project of that magnitude at the moment. I'm still installing decoders and weathering my rolling stock, I'd like to have all that done first. Maybe another year or two...?
 
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Hey Ken I'm just wondering with the duck unders have you thought about the kind that swing out?? I read an interesting how to article in a model railroader craftsmen a couple months back. It didn't look that tough to build and it was setup with simple switches to cut power before the swing out and on the swing out if it wasn't closed all the way.
 
The idea has crossed my mind Nick, the current duckunders are actually lift-outs with safety circuit breakers - I just go under them because [luckily] my back and legs are two parts of my body that are still in good working order <knock wood>!
 
Ahh ok well it was just an idea I had. Hope it works out for you, I like the layout plan as it is already but that's just my $.02
 
Ken, not a helix. What I was suggesting is extend the top and bottom peninsulas only to a size to allow a loop back into existing and added track, i.e. The lower main would come back in at the track that leads to the coal mine and the upper loop would feed off of your top yard track back into the top pass-through stage track (or added track). Terms, upper and lower/top and bottom, is in reference to the drawing.;)
 
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What ever you decide to do Ken i'm behind you all the way, i can't get my head round things at present, got loads of stuff flying round my head about moving and the likes.
 
Ken, not a helix. What I was suggesting is extend the top and bottom peninsulas only to a size to allow a loop back into existing and added track, i.e. The lower main would come back in at the track that leads to the coal mine and the upper loop would feed off of your top yard track back into the top pass-through stage track (or added track). Terms, upper and lower/top and bottom, is in reference to the drawing.;)

Hmmm I thought that might be what you were referring to Rex, just wasn't sure! :D Thanx for clarifying.

I did some preliminary measurements, and found that I would need to remove the built-in shelving from both sides of the garage where the 6-foot-diameter 'bubbles' would be - then there was a question of how to fit in at least a 2-ft opening for people to get to the front (where the open ends of the 'E's are located). I remember doing the math and coming up short, but I'll take another look. I'd really love to get rid of those lift-outs!

Steve - LOL been there done that, good luck with it all! Do you already know where you are moving to?
 
Ok Ken! I sure hope you can work out the space.

EDIT: I wouldn't be overly concerned with the "ideal" width of the aisles. Most of mine are only around 28-30" just because of the way things worked out. The guys just take their turns passing in them. "Sometimes you gotta do whatcha can do to make it work." ;) :D
 
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Good News and Bad News

First the Good News: I measured the clearances between my garage walls and the top and bottom peninsula ends, and taken as a whole, there is just enough space so I can have narrow [but still passable] openings and a folded dogbone - NO MORE LIFTOUTS!! :cool:

Now the bad news: To make everything fit, I'll need to move the entire layout northward [toward the 'top' of the diagram] by ~ 1 foot; this might require me to dismantle the sections, could prove to be a major headache!:eek:

I wouldn't be overly concerned with the "ideal" width of the aisles. Most of mine are only around 28-30" just because of the way things worked out. The guys just take their turns passing in them. "Sometimes you gotta do whatcha can do to make it work." ;) :D

Rex, some of mine will be even narrower than yours. Oh well. That's preferable to the current alternative...
 
Now the bad news: To make everything fit, I'll need to move the entire layout northward [toward the 'top' of the diagram] by ~ 1 foot; this might require me to dismantle the sections, could prove to be a major headache!:eek:

Ken,

If you cannot figure a way to move your layout without damaging it, I'll drive down there and help you.
 
This just in...

I went and re-did some measurements last nite, and found that if I use a 31-inch radius curve (instead of the original planned 34") on the southern blob, I will NOT have to move the layout to make everything fit!:cool: Back to the XtrkCAD drawing board!

Now, if only I could find a way to make use of that $40 worth of lumber and materials I already cut to support the new staging yard that I won't be using...

You know Ken,,, we have some truly great people on this forum, i'm proud of them all.
Yes, indeedy!
 
Oh, there'll definitely be new staging Chip - just not in the same exact location or dimensions for which I cut those pieces of lumber and homasote!
 



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