Planning for Signals: Need Help!


This is the post I was referring to:

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> I wasn't planning to plant signals just anywhere either. I am planning
> signals at all mainline turnouts (to protect that turnout) and either
> direction between sidings. My logic is that if a train is on the tracks
> between two sidings, I don't want another train to move onto that track,
> since there's nowhere to pass if they happen to be going in opposite
> directions.
=======================
You basically have two choices : some sort of block system (automatic
or manual) or some version of CTC (we'll rule out current of traffic
since it appears its bi-directional single track).

If its something other than CTC, you will still need train orders (or
equivalent) to control the movements of the trains. The signals will
be a pair of signals, one facing in each direction beyond the switches
at the ends of the siding. What keeps two trains from entering the
single track between sidings is the train orders, not the signals, by
the way. Between sidings you can have pairs of signals, one facing in
each direction.

In CTC you will have 3 signals at each siding switch, one governing
each route over the switch. The one nearest the points of the switch
will be a two headed signal so it can display a diverging signal. In
CTC the signal indication governs movement. Between sidings you can
have pairs of signals, one facing in each direction.

-----

Kennedy
 
Did we ever post this site?

http://www.ctcparts.com/about.htm

Another quote:

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> Ok, so what's to keep two trains from meeting between sidings, if you
> break the main into blocks between sidings?

In CTC, the logic of the machine will only set one of the signals at
either end to a condition that will allow a train to leave. For
example, if you have two sidings, Anna and Bess with Bess east of
Anna. If you set the signal at the east end of Anna to "Proceed" it
will normally set all westbound signals between Bess and Anna to
there most restrictive conditions. The signal at the west end of
Bess will be an absolute signal with Red meaning "Stop". The blocks
between stations are designed to allow following train behind the
first train without needs for them to wait until the train reaches
Bess or the first train having to flag should it become stopped on
the main with two signals behind it.

-----

And:

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> I haven't read any other replies yet, but in MY world, the top signal
> head would be the main, the bottom would be the siding. A thrown turnout
> (sending the train to the diverging track) would show a red signal on the
> top head, and green (assuming no train in the siding) on the bottom.
============================
If its green that means that the next signal is not red.

So if the bottom signal is green that means you have him lined through
the siding, in one end and out the other.

If the bottom signal is yellow then that means the next signal probably
is red and you are lining the train into the siding to stay.

If the bottom signal is lunar, that means there is no occupancy
detection in the siding and you don't know what the condition of the
siding is but you are headed into the siding.

If I were doing a signal system, I would display a red over yellow or
red over lunar for a diverging signal into a siding. The only place I
would display a red over green is at a junction.

-----

Kennedy
 
Yeah, the Lundgren site is good. His illustrations are a lot like what you find in the Train Dispatcher game.

PS. Was wondering when your next question would be!

:D

Kennedy
 
Thanks for some very very good info, Kennedy. It will help a lot with my design. The more I work with drawing my schematic, the more questions I face. With your info and review of some of these web sites, I have at least been able to move from totally confused to only confused.:D

I have to confess that I have only been devoting half my model time to the signals. I have been trying to get a layout extension installed to enhance operating capabilities. Now is a good time to do this and plan out the signals for this area at the same time. I am only going to lay track in this area for now and hold on the scenery so hopefully, within a week or so, I will be going full blast with the actual installation of block/signal control for the layout.

Having to add signals to my existing track layout is difficult since I don't have all the "should have's" in place. I have to try to fit these in and end up with a compromise between proto and model in some areas. I feel confident that these few areas will work and be close enough for realistic operation.

I am strongly leaning toward Railroad & Co. software for the computer part of this project. I have seen it in use at a hobby shop in Birmingham and it is absolutely amazing. Its capabilities will allow for any combination of operation you want: ABS, CTC, full automation, combinations of all. It is pricey, but it doesn't require any programming skills other than following the bouncing ball. http://www.freiwald.com/

Question: You say I can use the same "mast" for 2-way direction, single track, signal heads? Man, this will save me a bunch of $$.

It won't be long before a deluge of questions will be flying your way.:D
 
It's confusing because in real life, it's confusing if you read every RR's operating procedures. Since they're all different, it gets overwhelming. Which is why some folks make it as simple as can be, so it doesn't overwhelm the casual visiting operator. Somebody said that engineers will travel over the same route maybe 300 times a year. An operator on a MRR layout, maybe 30 times a year. So, they don't get that reinforcement with the signalling rules.

I don't recall saying that the same mast can be used for 2-way direction, unless you're referring to a lower signal to diverge (this was one of the quotes above). You can use the same bridge for all the signals, but normally, a mast only faces one direction. That goes back to the 'engineer on the right, so signals on the right" mentality. I don't think I've ever seen two-way signals on the same mast in real life.

Kennedy
 
Ok Kennedy on the mast, but dang...that's too bad for me. It would have saved me a bunch not having to buy or make for both directions.

I would like to add for those that are looking on: Yes, installing signals can be confusing and even frustrating, but the research and planning is so much fun that it is worth the effort...not to mention the end results.

Where you at Grande man? Your the one that got me fired up with these things.:D
REX
 
I'm still here...;) As for two sided signals, check this one out from the old L&N.

121234007.jpg


Is that what you had in mind? I'm not sure the SRR used them, but you might check around. Are you going to make the signals or buy them?
 
grande man said:
I'm still here...;) As for two sided signals, check this one out from the old L&N.
Is that what you had in mind? I'm not sure the SRR used them, but you might check around. Are you going to make the signals or buy them?
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's it. I may use something like that on the backside of the layout and keep the pretty stuff up front. I will probably have a mix of homemade and store boughts. I have already purchased a few, but it would bankrupt me to buy them all.

At this point, I am not going to try and be prototypical for any one railroad, but use their rules as a base for Model Railroading fun. I feel that simplicity is the key to this and I am trying to stay flexible and hopefully simple in operations. You well know with your research just how complicated it can get. Even the 1954 SRR Engineer's rule book that I have, includes many changes added to the signal definitions and protocols to follow.

I would doubt that very many MR's have a clue to the hundreds of different rules used by railroads, but there are three things that common sense will tell everyone: Green-go, yellow-caution, red-stop. Now the trick is to keep the "combination signal colors" simple for the sidings.
 
RexHea said:
there are three things that common sense will tell everyone: Green-go, yellow-caution, red-stop. Now the trick is to keep the "combination signal colors" simple for the sidings.
Click to expand...


I agree. The only thing I might add would be a flashing yellow approach aspect. That looks REALLY cool! Other than that, the KISS principle would probably be my choice too.
 
OK, I asked on the RyOps list about these types of masts, with heads facing in both directions. I was told that they're getting more common these days.

Andy Sperandeo, Executive Editor of Model Railroader, says that they would be uncommon before 1985, but are now quite common these days. He says there will be an article on signalling coming out soon in a special edition of MR, How to Build Realistic Layouts.

Somebody also said that back in the '60s, you had to get ICC permission to put signal lights to the left side of travel.

Kennedy
 
Yeah, I saw a notice about the special edition. The only problem with these is they never say enough about any one thing. I sure wish someone had a complete book of Model Railroad Signals only. There are plenty available on prototypes, but there are so many variances that you have to adapt for MR. Do you know of any MR book like this? Sure be a good idea for an MR writer to make a few $bucks$.

The doubled up masts may be good for me in the back areas of my layout where the most important function would be for operations and not correctness. I don't think anyone visiting would notice the difference and considering the size of my system, I have to try an economize where I can.

Thanks for the research and info.
 
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