PFM Sound System.... How did that work???


CharlesH.

Member
Over the years, I've read great things about a rare and wonderful sound system made by Pacific Fast Mail in the 1970's. When I finally saw it I was amazed to see that not only it was on-board sound, but it also had synchronised chuffing, quillable whistle, an optional reverb unit and it served as a power pack to boot. And all you had to do to install the receiver was wire a couple of leads to the rails and that was it.
Does anyone have an idea of how that thing worked? Perhaps a youtube video showing it in action? Is there a current, non-DCC equivalent?

Speaking of DCC, I've always complained about current systems sounding too tinny and flat (and I've seen many with the same opinion), but from what I've read, the PFE system delivered a rich, booming sound. Was that true, or was I just reading rosy-tinted memories? (Boy, would I love to blast an SP six chime whistle all through the house every time I reach a crossing....)
 
Charles, it operated on the same principles as the Pennsy's Trainphone system. The powerpack alsend a very low frequency radio signal through the track that was picked up by inductance throught the tender wheels. It was then processed by a module and sent to the speaker in the tender. The sound wasn't really syncronized to the engine but the DC voltage being picked up by the receiver. The higher the volage, the more chuffs and exhaust. That was usually closeenough and, in 1977, no one else had anything like it. I don't think many were sold, since, at $350, it was more expensive than many brass models. It also suffered from the same problems as the Pennsy inductive system, with a lot of RF interference when the track inductance naturally increased, at points like feeder drops and track gaps. People who had the system spent lot of time and money installing RF chokes all over the layout in attempt to silence this noise, but the system was way ahead of its time, and was a financial and technical failure. I heard one runningand was totally impressed. That was at a time when sound actually coming from a locomotive was just a pipe dream so I think I remember it sounding better than it actually did. I suspect a Tsunami with a deep bass speaker sounds a whole lot better.
 
...The sound wasn't really syncronized to the engine but the DC voltage being picked up by the receiver. The higher the volage, the more chuffs and exhaust.

Jim, I hate to disagree with some of what you said, as you've described the system very well. Actually you could connect the chuffs to a cam on steamers, and that ended the synch problem. The system instructions even recommended the installation using a cam made out of a 4 sided nut rounded off with a file, as the synch option wasn't very accurate. In fact several brass importers, Westside, NWSL, PFM and others, all started offering built-in cams on their steamers just for use with this system. You, of course, still had to build the "switch" operated by the cam.

...People who had the system spent lot of time and money installing RF chokes all over the layout in attempt to silence this noise, but the system was way ahead of its time, and was a financial and technical failure. I heard one runningand was totally impressed. That was at a time when sound actually coming from a locomotive was just a pipe dream so I think I remember it sounding better than it actually did. I suspect a Tsunami with a deep bass speaker sounds a whole lot better.

I knew 3 fellows personally that had the system, and none of them ever installed more than one RF choke. They are the only guys that I personally saw the systems in action, although there are others I know of but never saw. One was my O-scale buddy in Mobile. I don't know if his system still exists or not. I last saw him in 1992, right before he moved to SoCal. He had modules installed into an O-scale L&N Berk from US Hobbies, a Max Gray N&W Class-A, an old Thomas 2-8-0, a couple of Kemtron On3 locos, and a Leetown On3 Shay.

The other two are from here. One just recently passed, he was in HOn3 and our club has his system and I think some of his locos. The other is another O-scaler, (the one William, L&N Castle, posted pixs of his layout several months ago,) although he did stop using his when he could no longer get modules/parts for it.

Now the system did have some very bad shortcomings. The throttle wasn't that good and the sounds could leave a lot to be desired. In fact, this system is why I don't like sound in locomotives to this day. The bell, for lack of a better term, sounded "electronic", and the chuffs sounded more like "white noise bursts" rather than actual steam, and I guess thats why the last versions came with prerecorded cassettes of individual chuffs and bells rather than being generated in the baseunit itself. I don't remember if the last versions had air pump sounds available or not. I know that on the original version, that all you had was bell, whistle and chuff.

The whistle on the other hand was, I thought, just great on all versions. The only complaint I had about the whistle were the choices, low, medium and high. This referred to the pitch of the whistle. IIRC there never was a choice between single or multi-chimed whistles. That lever did make playing the whistle real easy. Plus with a decent speaker, any of the whistle choices sounded great! Now if we could just have that lever built into a DCC throttle, even I might spring for a sound system.;)
 
I was amazed to see
Why would that be amazing? Cool technology is always around years before it reaches the huddling masses. Same with DCC. There were way cool command control systems around since around 1979. It is only recently that the general population has discovered it. There are flexible transparancy video displays available today you know so that you could have electronic pictures displaying on your coffee mug - but they are too pricey. I mean I don't want a $10K coffee mug. But in about 20 years you can probably get one for $10.

And all you had to do to install the receiver was wire a couple of leads to the rails and that was it.
Not quite. One had to isolate DC circuits against the sound signal, and install the syncronization equipment in the locomotive. If the DC and the sound voltage hit a light buld it could blow (sound familiar DCC people?).

Does anyone have an idea of how that thing worked? Perhaps a youtube video showing it in action? Is there a current, non-DCC equivalent?
Yes. It simply put another signal onto the tracks. One had to use RF chokes to keep the high frequency out of DC things and capacitors to keep the DC out of the speakers. A cool side effect was that one could mess around with the RF chokes and Capacitors to get constant intensity lighting from it too. Hence the reason PFM was one of the first to start using low current 1.5v lamps for headlights.

Speaking of DCC, I've always complained about current systems sounding too tinny and flat (and I've seen many with the same opinion), but from what I've read, the PFE system delivered a rich, booming sound. Was that true,
Nope unfortunately that is not true physics for moving air to make sound still apply to a 1" speaker regardless. There was a unit that could be added to the system that also played the sounds through ones stereo. So for the low frequency sounds that are non-directional (much like a Bose Acoustimass system) one could trick the ears and the sound would seem to be coming from the locomotive.

PFM was only steam. A similar system for diesels which has just recently been discontinued was the PBL. I believe there is still one more system that works in this manner from Grizzely Mountain Engineering.

The sound wasn't really syncronized to the engine but the DC voltage being picked up by the receiver. The higher the volage, the more chuffs and exhaust.
Hog wash. That describes most of the current DCC systems. Hence all that playing around with CVs to get them syncronized. PFM had to have a cam or other mechanism on the driver to sync with.

I don't think many were sold, since, at $350, it was more expensive than many brass models. It also suffered from the same problems as the Pennsy inductive system, with a lot of RF interference when the track inductance naturally increased, at points like feeder drops and track gaps.
Also not true. The issue was simply that it was more sensitive to dirty track than DC (sound familiar DCC people?).

People who had the system spent lot of time and money installing RF chokes all over the layout in attempt to silence this noise,
The RF chokes were to prevent the RF frequencies from getting into DC circuits. No one wanted "sound" coming from their Twin-T detection units. Neither do I remember spending $0.15 for an RF choke to be a lot of money.

a financial and technical failure.
Once again not true. It was successful enough that other companies with the same concept got into the market and stayed there until only a few years ago. If anything the competition brought the market failure. I believe the sound units lasted longer than the brass locomotive portion of the business. You are right about the price they WERE outragously expensive. Sound unit $300, NP Z6 Brass sound equipted loco $600. In 1979 that was serious money (minimum wage was $2.15).

I heard one runningand was totally impressed.
I am guessing perhaps the unit you heard was a poor installation. All the physics and difficulties of installing speakers were the same back then as they are now. No baffle - lousy sound. Plus we have access to such a wider range of better speakers today. I remember cutting the brass frame & cone of a 2.5" speaker to get it to fit into the tender. If one made the cut fuzzy it would rub on the sides of the tender. I believe that is one reason my DCC installations sound so good. I'm applying all the knowledge I gained all those years putting in PFM. Others are just now learning those lessons. In my opinion the DCC units of today are just now getting close to where they were 30 years ago.

Also bear in mind that there were also at least four different units. There was the original PFM sound, and then there was the Mark 2 (both of these had electronic bells that were really pathetic). The DC throttle was built into the unit. I think the Mark 2 had a "walk around" teathered throttle option. The system became of age with the Sound System II and the Mini-Sound. The throttle was removed from the units so they were sound only and one could connect any DC throttle they wanted to it. The bell sounds, compressors, pumps, generators were actual recordings (sound familiar) put on quadraphonic infinite loop tapes. The whistle was playable. One thing that DCC units are just now starting to get is that the exhaust chuff was also tuneable. One could play the tone, cut off, and hiss of the exhaust chuffs. Locos sound way different under load than they do just drifting through the yard to the roundhouse.

I suspect a Tsunami with a deep bass speaker sounds a whole lot better.
I would put them about the same other than the Tsunami is going to be digital (a thing that makes all audiophiles cringe).

I've still got two Sound System II and a mini-sound. I sold the Mark 2 unit about 5 years ago to a fellow in Japan that lives 2 blocks from the factory that made them. So my comparision is not based on memory. Perhaps I will have to do some sort of a head to head comparison for inquiring minds. I'm trying very hard to get a PBL off ebay but they go for such high $ amounts.
 
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The only complaint I had about the whistle were the choices, low, medium and high. This referred to the pitch of the whistle. IIRC there never was a choice between single or multi-chimed whistles.
Both the sound system II and the mini sound have five selections on the number of chimes in the whistle.
 
Both the sound system II and the mini sound have five selections on the number of chimes in the whistle.

Ah! Thanx for the correction. The first model was the only unit that I got to see regularly. In the O scale installs I saw, the whistles were "booming", esp in that Berk. It had a 4"x6" speaker tilted in the tender with holes drilled through the frame very much like the DCC installs of today. The whistle was so loud that it gave me massive headaches, which is why I'm not a sound fan today.
 
In the O scale installs I saw, the whistles were "booming", esp in that Berk. It had a 4"x6" speaker tilted in the tender with holes drilled through the frame very much like the DCC installs of today. The whistle was so loud that it gave me massive headaches, which is why I'm not a sound fan today.
Yes, I've never totally understood that. I mean I understand that the human ear can hear low frequencies better at high volume, so stereos have the "loudness" filter to compensate. So I shouldn't be surprised when people crank up the volume to make it sound better (have you ever noticed when buying a stereo or surround sound system the salesman always cranks up the volume...). Anyway what I don't understand how people can stand the blaring, booming, and other distortion associated with the high volumes.
 
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Radio frequencies, I shoulda guessed! Thanks for the thorough explanations, fellas. The idea of sending a radio signal through the rails seems quite intriguing... cams... transmitters...nertz, there goes my overactive imagination again!
 
WS, while connecting cams on the model to better synchonize the chuffs was possible and recommended, it wasn't required. The PFM system would still vary the sound in synch with the voltage if it had no other input.

Low frequency radio signals fed to long lengths of tracks act like an antenna to any other RF device around. It wasn't simply a matter of adding RF chokes so you didn't get DC interference. The PFM system was able to generate spurious emmisions on many frequencies up to about 40 MHz. Tuned RF chokes were needed, particularly for AM radio, as the spurs would make an AM radio almost impossible to listen to within about 100 feet of the layout. The one system I helped install was at a fellow amateur radio operator's home. I think we had had about 20 RF chokes installed, including several tuneable units, so he could listen to his ham radio while the trains were running. If you didn't have these kind of RF issues, then just using RF chokes for DC interference was not a big deal.

I think you misunderstood my statement about how it sounded. I was totally impressed with how it sounded, especially the whistle. Since no other sound system even existed at the time, any sound was amazing. The question was asked about how it sounded compared to today's sound systems. That was so long ago that I remember it sounded great. How well it would stack up against a high quality DCC sounds system today is another matter. As you say, you'd have to a head to head comparison to have an idea.

When I said it was a technical and financial failure, I was referring to several problems. The first was it was by no means easy to set up. Installing cams in the locomotive and getting the sound synchronized was a lot harder than using Decoder Pro and having it all done by a computer. In addition, the PFM system was only set up for steam locomotives so it was a dead end in terms of diesels. The concept of track inductance was also fatally flawed since the system used 12 volts DC and any dirty track was a much bigger problem than the higher voltage AC power used for DCC today. Finally, the price was completely non-affordable to most modelers. In infaltion adjusted dollars, the system would cost over $1400 today. I doubt DCC would have gained the acceptance it has today if the prices were at that level.
 
Grandchildren very interested in long time dormant ho layout with PFM Mininsound II. Cleaned all pots inside control panel, & sounds from the loop tape coming thru beautifully once again. Memory wasn't 100%, so did some testing/cleaning of the 2 locos I had set up years ago, connecting to the drawbar, NOT the tender as new installation instructions said ( read first, fix second). Question: The speaker/sound circuit appears to working properly pulling sounds from the tape, but the stack noise no longer works, and the headlights don't either. Anyone identify which capacitors/traps need replacing to get this working again?

And I still think the sound is pretty good quality all around.

Thanks for any help in advance.
 
PFM Mininsound II. ... Question: The speaker/sound circuit appears to working properly pulling sounds from the tape, but the stack noise no longer works,
Stack noise - do you mean exhaust? On the control unit there is a separate volume control for the exhaust sound. Plus there is the "tone" adjustment. One or both of these might be preventing the exhaust from sounding.

Then on the locomotive there has to be the exhaust signal circuit. In general to make a "chuff" there has to be an overload signal from the locomotive cam (this is usually a sudden discharge/charge from a capacitor across the rails). Check the cams or wheel wipers on the locomotive to make certain they are all still making contact. If not check the capacitor on the loco and replace it with one of a similar value.

and the headlights don't either.
I'd have to read up on that one. I always used the low voltage constant lighting kits. Did you use those or are the lights the normal 18VDC style?
 
I think you misunderstood my statement about how it sounded. I was totally impressed with how it sounded, especially the whistle.
HA! Yeah, I don't know how many times I read that and still read it as unimpressed. ?!? Even after quoting it. Human brains are funny things.....
 
Thanks, suspected the loco capacitor might be the issue. Will try to find replacement. Difficult to read the rating on the capacitor. Not sure about the light, but suspect it is 18vdc. Locomotive is not easy to take apart but I have picked up some new bulbs & will replace. I did not have constant lighting, but found the kit with the parts. May try that out as well.
 
, suspected the loco capacitor might be the issue. Will try to find replacement. Difficult to read the rating on the capacitor.
They are .047 microfarad.

Not sure about the light, but suspect it is 18vdc. Locomotive is not easy to take apart but I have picked up some new bulbs & will replace. I did not have constant lighting, but found the kit with the parts. May try that out as well.
The non-constant lighting would probably be 16-18V don't remember exactly. One could hook up the system turn the throttle on all the way and blow the whistle loud and full blast. Measure the voltage with both those going on. Buy a lamp that is rated a bit over that maximum output.
The constant lighting kits use the 1.5V micro-miniature lamps.
 
You have to have a cam or insulated paint on the ground side with 4 gaps in the paint with a wiper to get the chuff. The chuff is caused by the cam shorting out a .047MF capacitor across the rails. No cam/insulated paint, no chuff. That is from the late Bob Longnecker, inventor of the PFM sound system...Hal
 
PFM Sound Exhaust

If you have lost your stack sound it can because by sevaral things. There is an adjustment inside the unit for the RF siginal, a small trim pot that is adjusted with a screw driver. The RF signal should be set to 300 KC, also the pot for the cut off could also need cleaning or the RF trim pot maybe dirty also from not being used. There is also some PFM designed IC that give the unit the nice stack sound and sometimes they need to be reseated in their socket. I have 7 of these unit and do my own repair work. These units may be old but there is nothing in DCC that will come close to the PFM sound. DCC is another hobby....Hal in Florida
 
PFM sound and block control signals

I have PFM sound and want to install block signals with block occupancy detection with resistance between rails. What do I need to install to keep this from knocking out the exhaust sound and where should it be installed?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Tom Stamey
 
I don't reccommend putting any thing across the rail with the PFM Sound. My club use the optical signal system and I am able to run my sound system there with no problems. You can use the RF choke that is in the tender but you are limited to how many you can use on your system. Hal 407-277-8213
 
CJ, don't forget Jim Gibson. He had it, though only on or two locos set up for it. He seldom used it, and I remember it being finicky, though the whistle did sound great.

QSI steam has a quillable whistle. That N&W articulated you guys have can be set up to make it work. I did it with ours.

Our biggest problem is teaching members that there is a volume control, and that they need to use it. Likewise quiet mode. I would not trade my sound equipped locos for PFM sound and DC. I have also found that nominal track cleaning is all that's necessary to avoid problems with DCC.
 
One of my fonder model railroading memories

is the first time I walked into the old Lenox Toys and Hobbies at Lenox Square in Atlanta in the early '70s and saw and heard their demo Russian Decapod with a PFM Sound System. There wasn't anything like it in the World in those days.

I don't know that I'd want one or even want to hear one again because the real thing might not be nearly as good as my memory of it. I was a 20-something just starting to make a little money and could with some stretching and wife convincing afford the $149 for a United Ps-4, but that sound system was out of my reach. Moved to Alaska in '74 and it took a long time to get to where you could afford a house with room for railroading here. Had a buddy in Juneau who had a nice layout room and had some of his locos PFM equipped but he had more money than skill so the operation wasn't very impressive. I see there are a couple on Ebay; I'll give it some thought.
 



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