Newbie in need of guidance with wiring

[zruvalcaba]

Hello everyone, this is my first post. I'm relatively new to model trains and I'm hitting the ground hard with me and my son's layout. I built a 4x12 table in the garage and started off with the Woodland Scenics River Pass HO layout and plan on adding on the last 4 feet on my own. I bought a kit because I figured it would be a great place to start and it would be fun for my son and I to work on it together...so far so good but now I want to tear it down and build another and I'm not even done yet!

Like I said, the layout is pretty much done and I'm at the point where I'm ready to fill everything in with newspaper wads and plaster cloth to create the landforms. Before I do however, I figured I should take the time to do all of the wiring and even test the train...

Anyway, what now?

Growing up I always had "plug and play" O-scale Lionel trains that came with the transformer and it was easy to setup and get running...with this layout I have the Atlas 83 track but I have no idea what to do next. I eventually plan on adding onto the table so I want good equipment now...nothing that I will eventually sell and upgrade. What do I need to do? Please detail items that I should buy....thanks in advance!

 

[hamltnblue]

Are you running DC or DCC for controls?

For starters you should look at running a feed wire to the 4 corners of your oval. Every quarter of the way around add a feeder track or feeder rail joiners. Make sure the wire is at least 16 gauge from the power pack/controller to each of the feeds. Also make sure all outside tracks feeds are connected together as well as inside feeds (don't cross them). It's pretty basic.

 

[zruvalcaba]

As of right now I only have the layout built and the Atlas 83 track laid out on the table. No wiring, no controls, nothing. I assume DCC is the way to go but like I said, I'm new to this. I saw this sweet (Digitrax?) control unit that was wireless and had like a digital readout....can I use that to run my wire to it?


So for starters, is this correct:

Go to Home Depot or Radio Shack or something and buy a roll of 16 gauge wire? Do they make color coded wire that I can strip and solder to the track...like black and red or something? I already have a soldering iron.

Then what, solder the wire to each side of the track at every quarter or so turn in the track layout?

Then run the wire to a central point in the table and I assume I hook up the wire to a controller of some sort?

Am I on the right path....I just look around and I see controllers, decoders, etc. etc....kind of confused here.

 

[UP2CSX]

You've basically got it right. I'd buy a roll of red and a roll of black 16 gauge wire. This will be used for your main power bus, that you will run from your DCC command station (or power pack, if your prefer that term) track terminals. Buy a roll of 18 gauge red and black stranded wire and use them to attach to your power bus. Drill holes next to the track about every four feet. Push the wire up through the holes. Doesn't matter it it's red or black as long as you keep it consistent. Strip each wire about 1/8" and fold so it's horizontal next to the track. If you're good at fine soldering, solder one wire to the inside web of the rail closest to the viewer since it will be less obtrusive. If you're not so good, solder to the outside rail web. Solder the other wire to the outside rail web on the rail facing away for the viewer. Clean up all the solder blobs with a fine file and test run a train to make sure you don't have any soldered connections that are touching flanges or lifting wheels.

That's all you need for DCC. No blocks or anything else. You can run as many trains as your layout will hold or you command station power supply will support.

You will need to have DCC decoders in each engine. Many engines already come with a DCC decoder and some come with both an engine decoder and sound module if you really want to go for the big time. Just check that any engine you buy either already has a DCC decoder or has a DCC decoder plug already installed. It's then just a matter of popping off the shell and plugging in a decoder. The Digitrax web sit has a listing of most engines with the appropriate decoder for each one. I would stick with Walthers Proto 2000, Atlas Gold Series, or Bachmann Spectrum Series engines since these already have DCC decoders or the decoder is easy to install and readily available.

 

[Selector]

Hello. I will disagree gently with the advice to use 16 gauge wire. For the linear footage of track I think you are contemplating, you need two, perhaps three pairs of feeders, each wire between 12-24" long, and the gauge need be nothing thicker than 20 or even 22. You can buy rolls of wire with an outer white insulation that is stuffed with four coloured wires, yellow, green, red, and black. Each wire is about 20 gauge, and will easily fill your needs. I use them exclusively with my 5 amp Digitrax DB150 powering the rails through a bus of heavy speaker wire. For your set-up, you would make two parallel T's, with two short lengths T-ing onto two longer lengths that run parallel to the central axis of your oval. Branching off of the longer lengths would be the few pairs of feeders you would need.

The idea is to keep voltage losses to a minimum, and at the same time to keep a robust DCC signal getting through the rails to your decoders in the engines. Long thin wires will reduce the voltage sufficiently that at the far ends of a large layout, say a loop of 60', you could expect engines to fail to respond to directions from your throttle, and to even slow drastically. Use a thicker wire the cross-section of which affords easier passage to voltage, thus reducing it much less. As you connect feeders to the track via the finer 20 gauge wires, you will have very little voltage loss and good signal.

That you would want to do is to solder the feeders to two or three lengths of track, and then feed the section soldered at one of those soldered feeders. that way, power reliably gets all along that soldered length...no power loss. At their ends, you have a non-soldered joiner that will allow the rails to move apart or together a bit to accommodate changes in humidity to the bench and temperature for the metal rails...although temps don't affect the rails a great deal.

I hope I haven't confused you. Make solid rail lengths by soldering joiners, and then have a non-soldered joiner between two lengths. Those two lengths can be up to 9' long and reliably fed by one pair of 20 gauge wire feeders....in fact, I have 30' currently of staging tracks fed by one pair of thin feeders at one end....and not a soldered pair of joiners in the whole shebang. I'm probably lucky, admittedly, and will eventually have problems. But I wanted to make it clear that you don't need to buy more expensive copper wire when less expensive wire will do.

About your DCC base unit...it should be handy, mounted somewhere where you will want access to it...right near one elbow as you are running trains would be great, but maybe not ideal. It would be best mounted just below the table edge, but tucked back on a shelf or frame member safely. Keep it from being forced aside or back when you touch it with the result that it could occasionally fall and get damaged...use blocking or strapping or something to keep it put. The heavy bus wires, 14-16 gauge, would run from outputs at the rear or side of that base unit and provide a base for your feeders.

I would, as a preference now that I have 5 amps working for me, recommend a system with a true usable 2 amps as an absolute minimum...2.5 would allow you to run five or six sound-equipped engines run simultaneously with no worries. If you will have two multi-engined consists running at once, each pulling 40 cars or more, you will be using about 1.8-2 amps, provided they have sound decoders in them. No sound? Then you could run 6-8 engines without any worries. This supposes that you are using good quality engines with can motors. New engines will use more power until they wear-in. Also, your less well tuned rolling stock trucks will require more power to tow.

I have gone on at length, so I'll stop now.

-Crandell

 

[zruvalcaba]

Jim, thanks for the detailed information...I think I'm starting to get the idea. Now let me ask you this...if I begin soldering the wire, let's say every end of the layout (top, bottom, left, and right) on every curve, do you eventually bring all of the wires together to meet at a single wire that then connects to the command station. I'm assuming in your first two sentences you mean that the 16 gauge wire is what's used to connect to the track and the 18 gauge wire is what's used to connect the 16 gauge wire to it and then to the power station? If this is the case, do I solder the 16 gauge wires to the 18 gauge wires or is there some sort of clip that I can cleanly clip the two wires together?

In terms of the power station, I guess I will go DCC. I honestly don't know why but it seems to be all the rage and being a trendy guy....I must follow blindly. . What's the standard to go by? In San Diego we have the railroad museum in Balboa Park and they have a massive model railroad setup and the guys seem to be using the Atlas hand command systems that they then unplug and move to a different part of the layout and plug it in....I also see the digitrax zephyr...maybe the Bachmann wireless Dynamis? What do you think?

 

[UP2CSX]

Correct, you run a power bus around the layout with the thicker wire on the power bus and the thinner wire connected to the track. As Crandell said, you could probably get away with 20 gauge wire for the main bus and 22 gauge wire for the track feeders. I don't think there's a significant cost saving between the gauges but even if you go with a 16 gauge bus, 22 gauge wire is easier to solder as a feeder and provides more than enough power for the short distance a feeder travels.

You start your bus from the command station and then hang it beneath the layout, roughly following the mainline. If you have yard or industry tracks that run a fair distance from the mainline, you'll probably want to run at least one feed to them also but most of the time you'll just be going straight up to the main. You never want the bus wires to meet once it starts since making a loop would create a short circuit.

By far the easiest and most reliable way I've found to connect feeder wires to the main bus is by using Positap connectors. You can read more about them at http://www.posi-lock.com/posiplug.html. They are now available at many auto supply stores or you can order them on-line. You can tap the bus wire without stripping and then easily attach the feeder wire with good mechanical strength and electrical continuity. It cut my wiring time in half.

As far as DCC, not only is it trendy, it actually the most useful thing invented for model railroaders since electricity. I don't think they were using Atlas hand throttles since Atlas doesn't make any DCC command stations or throttles. The most likely were either Digitrax or NCE throttles. The choice of the actual system is almost like a religious conviction. There is a long running thread in the DCC section you should read for different opinions. I don't think you can go far wrong with either a Digitrax Zephyr or NCE Power Pro starter system. I have no experience with the Dynamis but it looks like an interesting system. It's not as expandable as the Digitrax or NCE systems but may very well be a good choice for a small to medium layout. My best advice is go to a hobby shop (I know there are several large shops in the San Diego area) and try each system. They are all going to run trains about the same but see how things feel in your hand and how intuitive the controls are and how easy they are to get to. The best system in the world that doesn't have controls you understand or aren't in the right place to fall easily to hand will soon drive you up a wall.

 

[zruvalcaba]

Jim, again thanks for detailed response. I guess I just have a couple more questions before I go out and buy what I need. First question, I have the track assembled...can I simply solder one connection and try it out before I move forward to the rest of the track? Or will this not provide enough power to drive the locomotive around the layout? I just don't want to sit there soldering all night and all day only to go and test it and something isn't right. Also, how can I test that the track is getting electricity? Can I use like a voltmeter? Finally, what's a power bus?

So I take it, I can just pick up this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/DIGITRAX-ZEPHYR...5|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50
Get my wire, soldering iron, and I'm good to go?

 

[UP2CSX]

A power bus is just a technical term for a set of wires that is used to provide power for other wires that are connected to it. The two wires that will provide power for the feeders is a power bus.

You should always have a voltmeter handy to test track if there are electrical problems. It a little tricky measuring volts and current exactly with DCC since it's putting out a highly modified wave form AC current but the voltmeter will at least tell you if you have power or not to a section of track if it appears dead.

Indeed, I would recommend that you just connect one pair of wires intially and make sure all is well with the track mechanically and electrically. That one connection will provide enough power, with clean track, well fitted rail joiners, and clean locomotive wheels, to run your layout without a problem. You are going to run feeder wires as insurance because these ideal conditions will become less ideal the longer the layout is in use.

If the Zephyr is your choice for a starter DCC system, the one on e-bay will do very nicely.

 

[zruvalcaba]

Also, I assume the Atlas 83 remote switches have everything I need to just connect them to my existing wiring layout without having to worry about crossing positive and negative?

Thanks again for your patience and explanations Jim!

 

[zruvalcaba]

So I ended up buying the Digitrax Zephyr today along with a Bachmann Spectrum Santa Fe locomotive for now. I'm heading down to Radio Shack tomorrow morning to buy the wire and will begin soldering the connections sometime this week. Stay tuned....

 

[bigB]

In a DCC system, can you hook up your switch machines to your DCC system like you did your DC system or is their special wiring that will have to be accomplished too? I know it will prob differ system to system aka Digitrax vs. MRC etc. Thanks

 

[zruvalcaba]

I ended up buying the Digitrax Zephyr and so far it's been pretty straight forward. As of right now, I have 3 connections to various points on the track. I suppose I still need to buy some sort of terminal so that they can all come together centrally and then one connection from that to the zephyr. I've tested the train (Bachmann Spectrum Santa Fe) around the track and it makes a clear pass. It still hangs on my bridge so I need to fix that but otherwise I think I just need some light sanding on the tracks to clear up debris from the plaster and I should be good.

The last problem I'm having is the remote switches. I have the Atlas Code 83 remote switches that have the red, green, and black wires coming from the switch. I wired them to the remote switch and then to the zephyr but for some reason when I toggle the switch, the switch doesn't switch.

Bah, how can this be a childs hobbie if a 33 year old can't even figure it out right.

 

[jtudor]

The Atlas remote switches are not designed to operate on DCC. You can use them with a DCC system in several ways. One way is to use a separate power supply for the switches, they run on low voltage AC. Another way is to get DCC controlled switch motors to replace the Atlas motors on them now.

You can go whichever way you want and even mix the two if you want to. But the Atlas motors will not work as they are now.

 

[zruvalcaba]

The Atlas remote switches are not designed to operate on DCC. You can use them with a DCC system in several ways. One way is to use a separate power supply for the switches, they run on low voltage AC. Another way is to get DCC controlled switch motors to replace the Atlas motors on them now.

You can go whichever way you want and even mix the two if you want to. But the Atlas motors will not work as they are now.

Bah, figures. Any recommendations on a power supply for them?

 

[jtudor]

You can use any standard model railroad power supply. I got an older MRC supply for $5 at a local train show. Just make sure it has an AC output and you will be in business.