new guy and overwhelmed here.


V

virginiacaver

Train Recovery Mechanic
hello all,
i just joined on here yesterday and was looking for some basic things to sotre away in the ol' memory for future use. i am new to trains basically. i tried an n scale lay out many years ago and it was an utter failure. i trashed the board,track and wiring. sold the locomotives and cars to a buddy at work.
well i decided to give it another try. my buddy at work has had the trains in a closet and has not even taken them out of their jewel cases. he is giving them back to me.
now let me clarify before i get hammered here. i am building a simple "L" shaped layout in my basement. 8' both ways and 3' deep. i have looked at a million track plans and do not want a spaghetti layout or 100 tail tracks. i wanted to build something that is simple and basic that i can have my 4 year old granddaughter and i spend some quality time around.
i used the anytrack free program to design my layout. and only allowing 50 track pieces i did an inner loop and an outer "L" shaped loop and printed them both out. i am using a single 20 degree crossover to connect the two tracks and have a #6 left turnout to run to three separate parallel tail tracks all with #6 rt turn outs. i would post the layouts but cant figure out how to transfer the formats from .any to .jpg or .bmp
i am not interested in replicating any specific track or location, just a simple set up than i can run two trains at the same time.
here are my questions:
1) my single inner oval has 9.8" radii and my outer loop had 11.1" with a single 18" entering and exiting the curves. is this too tight?

2) i want to do a small elevated track section along the back longer outer loop. i wanted to do a 2" rise using 4% grade. i want to use the foam grade pieces. seems pretty simple . is it? so according to the plans i need 4' of rise to get to the two inches of elevation. is this correct?

3) i plan on putting down a 1" foam top on my table to cut in a small stream and for slight details. i am going to use the foam roll track bed. in top of it. any issues?

4) i plan on using white extruded foam blocks to build small hills. i have done an 8 foot long faux stone wall using these blocks and using latex paint with great success. my question is, do most people lay their track then build terrain around it? or vice versa? why i ask is wouldn't i want to have my track all set and run the heck out of it with cars to see where i might have issues with curves etc? this was my downfall with my first attempt and model railroading.

thanks....now pound away


Gary
 
I am a definite fan of getting the track down and working smoothly first. Nothing more frustrating than a constant problem area, so do the track and get it working well before scenery.


Sent from my Vic20 using JavaMoose
 
First of all, welcome to the Forum!

Sounds like you pretty much know what you want, and plan to keep it simple - good idea.

On a platform that width, I think you could go with wider-radius curves. They will give you much better performance and they'll also look better.

4% grade is a bit steep - kinda limits the length of your trains. 2% is the average maximum for most of us.
 
how much distance do i need to get up 2 inches using a 2% grade?
and wider radii gives much better performance, how? with the width of my layout my inner loop cannot be any larger than the 9.8" radius. i figured i cannot run long rolling stock on the inner loop.
 
For grades a 2% grade means you go 100 inches to rise 2 inches. To rise 4inches, you'd need to go 200 inches, about 16 ft.


Sent from my Vic20 using JavaMoose
 
well that puts a damper on things. i wanted a small grade of at least 2 inches but i do not have 100 inches to run up to it. is a 4% grade bad because of the strength of the engine or what else? why do they make a 4% if it is not feasible?
 
How long are you planning to make your trains? I'd mock it up and see what you can do.




Sent from my Vic20 using JavaMoose
 
okay with the anytrack program i am able to turn the inner loop from 9.8" to 11.1" by using a smaller 2.5 inch segment at the apex of the radius instead of the 5 inch with 9.8 inch.
 
okay ...don't laugh but i was able to paste together my track layout from the free version of anytrack

i hope this makes a bit more sense
 
The plan is readable. While 4% is a steep grade, it is doable, but keep in mind that it will limit the length of the train you can pull. The wider curves help due to a decrease in the drag of the train across the curve. Since you want a elevated track and you're going to use the WS inclines, do they offer a less steep grade set for N scale, or is 4% all they offer? Also, does it have to be 2" up? Can it be a smaller rise?
 
W S WST1410 2% Incline Set

WS have 2% as per title

large-WST1410.jpg

cmaceeepc
Craig
 
okay here is a better scan. i can do a 2% up to an inch in 50 inches. i guess i can make that work. thanks for setting me straight on that.

now i have a couple old diesel locomotives from my previous attempt at this. i have been reading about DCC. now do i have this right...with dcc the current to the track is steady and the DCC loco is digitally controlled to vary the input through basically a potentiometer on the train. assuming i am correct can i run older trains without dcc on those tracks or an adjoining track.
and is there a major flaw in my latout that anyone can see?

thanks, and please be brutally honest. i won't cry. at least not a lot.

gary
 
Hi Gary, and welcome!

I'm a big fan of around the room shelf type railroads. You can set the at any height, what ever is comfortable for you. You can either fasten them to the wall or setup on narrow free standing tables. Mine is 24" deep at most with most of the shelf at 12" or even less. You can go completely around the room if you want continous running, just use bridges or lift out bridges for doorways.
This will free the entire center of the room. If the railroad is high enough most furniture will fit against the wall under the railroad. My current railroad is point to point, using turntables and wyes to turn steam engines. A lot of places for industry switching too.

From the experience with my three boys I found kids have a short attention span, usually around 45 minutes, so multi hour operation sessions don't interest them.
Trains running in loops don't hold their attention for more than a couple minutes. My boys did enjoy hands on, switching, start and stopping the train, changing direction, and building. They enjoyed building cars and structures, then placing them on the railroad and interacting with them. I am doing Canadian Pacific, 1954 era. But I let them do whatever they wanted. That worked really well. If they built the car or engine, they treated it quite well, even gave me a hard time if I coupled at too great a speed. Some things broke, but that was fine, a good learning experience, we all had a great time together.
 
Gary,

I do not think that your design is bad.....it is exactly what you were aiming for. As for some of your questions: 1) the radius, although a little tight, will suffice. Some larger, like the 89' autocarriers (if you use them) or 85' boxcars, will really hang over the edge and not look like the prototype but that is not what you were aiming for (as I read it). 2) your incline should be fine. Once again 4% is not great, but I doubt you are planning a 40 car coal train are you? with 8' on each side you can afford to climb 2-4% in my opinion with little issues. Like everyone mentions, lay the track (without mounting) and run the train the way you expect to see if there are any issues.

On a side note, I am having the same problem with Anyrail and have posted if someone would loan their license. I am moving from a small table top layout to a full size room (I have to watch the radius and inclines).
 
Welcome to the forum!

The WS risers come in the 2% version mentioned above and I'm reasonably certain they have a 3% one as well, but don't hold me to that. More than anything else the grades you can use relies on how heavy your locos are, followed by how many cars you would like to run per train. In model trains pulling power is entirely dependent on the weight of the engine, heavier being better. Being longer obviously helps increase weight, but width is a bigger factor if you ask me. You will find that the hardest pulling diesels are all carbody or cowl designs, such as the various E units, F units, and F45/FP45s, as this allows for a much bigger and thus heavier metal frame.

Regarding DCC, your info is a bit off. :) With DCC the power to the track is a fixed voltage square wave alternating current. The frequency of the square wave is dynamically altered between two states, encoding a binary signal into the track power which the decoders can understand. The decoder rectifies this alternating current to DC before passing it to the motor as required - no pots necessary! Unfortunately without the decoder the DCC signal is just gobbledy-gook, and a DC engine put on the tracks will either emit a humming sound, set itself on fire, or making a humming sound and then set itself on fire. :p

For track editting I highly recommend SCARM.
 
That is a good description Trinity. Got a good laugh.....but I think VirginiaCave is probably best just using DC and blocking. They want to keep their design small and using DCC on something like this is way overkill. If they ever expand, which it sounds like it probably will not, then they can address these other topics......
 
trinity thanks for the info. so it is chopped ac current that is rectified on board the train. cool! and yes i will not be using DCC, my layout is small and it would be overkill.
WS makes grades from 1 to 4 i guess i will buy a 4% and a 1% . i will mock it up with the 4% and try it. i do not plan of pulling 40 cars. maybe 10-15. and if 4% is too much then i will cut it in half and use the 1% and the newly made two for a 3% grade. try it etc. working down until i get the desired results. since the two engines i have are old i guess i better invest in a new engine.
i see you mention e&f units and f45's. i will look into those. and thank you for taking your time to help me out.

hopefully by this weekend i will have my table built and lay the track on it try it out. i will try to take pictures of the build if that is okay here.( not like i am doing an entire room of trains)

my motto is K.I.S.S.. keep it simple stupid. my goal to have a basic great running train circuit and then take my time and try to build a nice scenic landscape around it. something when the granddaughter comes over we can work on as a project together. sort of like art class without the silly smocks!

thank you,

gary
 
Gary,

Perfect plan. If you are going to invest in a new engine, really anything new (especially the Kato's) will be more than heavy enough and powerful enough to do what you want. You are limited to the F45's, etc. and can get the SD70/80, ES44AC, etc and have a modern railroad, but before jumpping the gun, I would test my existing engines first. What are you losing and they probably look great.

Kind of agree with you on code 80. I have quite an investment in that so even though I am rebuilding, I have to stick with it....otherwise I would get code 55. BTW, forgot to mention....nice powerpack.
 
E units have been made most recently by Kato I believe, although other (older) brands exist. F units have been made by just about everyone at some point. I can personally attest to the quality of Kato's E5 and F7 units, and Intermountain's FT units.

Athearn is the sole manufacturer of ready-to-roll F45 & FP45 locos, and they are phenomenal engines.
 
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