Locomotive Consisting

[dave1905]

With NEC I know that when you program it in the advanced mode, you don't use the consist number, you just select the engine you want to lead and it becomes the leader, so headlights and forward/reverse are relative to that engine. If you put that consist on a train going the other way, you just select the engine you want to lead and forward/reverse and headlights are relative to that engine. One of the reasons I chose NCE many moons ago.

Ironically, I later backdated my modeling from 1948-1952 to 1900-1905 so I don't "consist" anything anymore.

 

[TLOC]

Consisting is why I left DC and went to RailPro that has IMO the easiest consisting. Because I fell in love with the ProtoThrottle I sold off the Railpro and went with ESU Cab Control. Very hard but doable consisting but then I changed the operations of my layout and sold off all 6 axle locomotives and am now rebuilding the locomotive roster with 4 axles. Have 1 and awaiting 2 more and I will start consist again but this time on the locals. Consisting locomotives and hearing the rumbling sounds of engines just makes it feel so much closer to real.

be safe
TomO

 

[Greg@mnrr]

I'm confused. I always thought that"Basic Consisting" was when a modeler gave each of the locomotives in the consist the same address. And, then there's "Universal" where the command/booster kept the consisting information and the consisting was done with CV changes.

Greg

 

[dave1905]

Assigning the same address to two locomotives is basically a work around to run multiple engines at the same time without having to create a consist. It's not really "consisting" them because the consist functions on the decoder or command station are not used.

An engine has three addresses, Long short and consist. If there is a number in the consist address the engine is part of a consist.

There is "basic" or "old" consisting where the engines are assigned to a consist and the consist number is stored in the command station. When you access the consist, the command station sends the same instructions to each engine that is in the consist. If there are three engines in a consist and you increase speed the command station sends a separate message to each engine.

Advanced consists have the decoder remember the consist number and the when the consist is accessed the command station sends a command to the consist and any engine with that consist number responds. If there are three engines in a consist and you increase speed the command station sends a single message to all the engines.

A difference between advanced consisting and giving all the engines the same address is that with the same address each engine responds exactly the same. If you turn on the headlights, all the headlights turn on. In advanced consisting the engines can be set up individually and can respond individually. If you turn on the headlight of the lead unit, only the lead unit headlight will turn on.

Another down side of giving all the engines the same address is that you don't intuitively know which engine is THE engine. If I consist RDG 634 and 621, what number is the consist? Dunno. If you use advanced consisting it doesn't matter what the consist number is. If RDG634 is in the lead, I select engine 634 and the consist works. If engine 621 is in the lead, I select engine 621 and the consist works.

 

[D&J RailRoad]

It seems that once you pick an operating system and work with it a little bit, it becomes easy. Tryin to explain it to someone who has never seen the operating system is pointless and confusing.
Once again, if ya have trouble operating a vending machine, DCC is not for you.

 

[tootnkumin]

By the time of the UP merger, the tunnel motors were used system wide. They were more or less just another SD40, their primary advantage was they were newer so tended to break down less.

They call them Tunnel Motors, but in fact it's got more to do with the radiators getting clogged with hot and dirty exhaust smoke when the motors are working hard when in tunnels. So they shifted the intakes to low down on the hood sides.

 

[MHinLA]

MHinLA, though I have never claimed to be able to read one's mind, I would suppose you operate your steam individually because the 1:1 didn't have the electrical or air line attachments as the diesels did.
I run consists quite a bit on the D&J Railroad. That's the only way to be able to pull the long freights.

Yes ! Exactly !! I make believe I am 2 separate engineers so as to experience controlling double headed steam like the 1:1 scale did..I know I can consist them digitally like diesels..But that's not the point, for me....But no one yet has answered my 'brain-teaser' in my last sentence. IE, Why rear engine rolls first, etc.. Can you ? M

 

[tootnkumin]

Yes ! Exactly !! I make believe I am 2 separate engineers so as to experience controlling double headed steam like the 1:1 scale did..I know I can consist them digitally like diesels..But that's not the point, for me....But no one yet has answered my 'brain-teaser' in my last sentence. IE, Why rear engine rolls first, etc.. Can you ? M

Relieve the strain on the couplers.

 

[kjd]

They call them Tunnel Motors, but in fact it's got more to do with the radiators getting clogged with hot and dirty exhaust smoke when the motors are working hard when in tunnels. So they shifted the intakes to low down on the hood sides.

There was an EMD engineer on one of the forums and he said it was a common misconception tunnel motor radiator modifications were for cooling in tunnels. In reality putting the fans below the radiators allows them to cool the radiator faster between tunnels. Once in the tunnel, all the air is about the same temperature so where ever it's pulled in its going to be hot. That makes cooling between tunnels more important.

 

[D&J RailRoad]

Yes ! Exactly !! I make believe I am 2 separate engineers so as to experience controlling double headed steam like the 1:1 scale did..I know I can consist them digitally like diesels..But that's not the point, for me....But no one yet has answered my 'brain-teaser' in my last sentence. IE, Why rear engine rolls first, etc.. Can you ? M

Why the second loco rolls first then the lead loco rolls.
When starting up a train, the initial roll has to stretch the couplers to avoid snapping them at the far end of the train or causing the caboose riders to fall out the back door. If the lead loco were to roll first, the second would not be able to feather the roll of the train to stretch the couplers and might end up with broken couplers. Now, in the world of a heavy train that really needed the two or more head end units, the second loco may not be able to start moving the train by itself but merely slip its wheels until the lead loco provided the additional tractive effort. In the application that MH is enacting on his line, the second loco starts the feathered roll and the lead loco joins in to just keep up until the couplers are taught then rolls on the power with whistle signals for coordination.

 

[tootnkumin]

There was an EMD engineer on one of the forums and he said it was a common misconception tunnel motor radiator modifications were for cooling in tunnels. In reality putting the fans below the radiators allows them to cool the radiator faster between tunnels. Once in the tunnel, all the air is about the same temperature so where ever it's pulled in its going to be hot. That makes cooling between tunnels more important.

It's not the positioning of the fans that counts, but the intakes for the air that feeds to them. Instead of having the intakes high on the sides of the hood, alongside the fans, on the tunnel motors they were shifted to the bottom, down near the walkways, where the air should be clearer.
Standard SD40-2 intake position

Repositioned SD40T-2 intakes. It was also applied to the SD45's as well.

Wikipedia also gives this explanation for the change
312 SD40T-2s were built for North American railroads between April 1974 and July 1980. This locomotive and the SD45T-2 are popularly called tunnel motors, but EMD's term is SD40-2s with "cooling system modifications" because they were designed for better engine cooling in mountainous areas.[1] The difference between this locomotive and its non-tunnel motor cousin, the SD40-2, are the radiator intakes and radiator fan grills located at the rear of the locomotive.

 

[kjd]

Toot, you are absolutely correct about the differences but I was trying to illuminate the why. I'm sure we've all seen those photos of MRL double grainers coming out of Blossburg Tunnel, the "Black Fog of Blossburg" as it was known. As the train emerged from the black cloud, exhaust smoke was carried along under and around the cars for some distance outside the tunnel. I'm pretty sure it was hot at the top as well as the bottom of the tunnel. In fact, MRL's new SD70Aces couldn't handle it and a few years ago MRL shortened the tunnel by a considerable length and also made it wider so there would be more air for the locomotives to breath and stay cool.

In the tunnel motor design the fans are under the radiator cores and are pushing the air through them. In a conventional SD40-2, the fans are on top of the locomotive and pull the air through the cores. You can generate more air flow by pushing cooler air than trying to pull hot air. This increased air flow allowed the tunnel motors to cool down more quickly between tunnels. Where there are several tunnels close together, a conventional locomotive that is already hot won't cool down as much between the tunnels and enter the next tunnel closer to overheating. The intake design is result of form following function.

I found some references to an article in Trains, November 2002 talking about the issue.

 

[tootnkumin]

Toot, you are absolutely correct about the differences but I was trying to illuminate the why. I'm sure we've all seen those photos of MRL double grainers coming out of Blossburg Tunnel, the "Black Fog of Blossburg" as it was known. As the train emerged from the black cloud, exhaust smoke was carried along under and around the cars for some distance outside the tunnel. I'm pretty sure it was hot at the top as well as the bottom of the tunnel. In fact, MRL's new SD70Aces couldn't handle it and a few years ago MRL shortened the tunnel by a considerable length and also made it wider so there would be more air for the locomotives to breath and stay cool.

In the tunnel motor design the fans are under the radiator cores and are pushing the air through them. In a conventional SD40-2, the fans are on top of the locomotive and pull the air through the cores. You can generate more air flow by pushing cooler air than trying to pull hot air. This increased air flow allowed the tunnel motors to cool down more quickly between tunnels. Where there are several tunnels close together, a conventional locomotive that is already hot won't cool down as much between the tunnels and enter the next tunnel closer to overheating. The intake design is result of form following function.

I found some references to an article in Trains, November 2002 talking about the issue.

Thanks for the correction Paul, makes sense.

 

[cv_acr]

I'm confused. I always thought that"Basic Consisting" was when a modeler gave each of the locomotives in the consist the same address.

I don't really consider that "consisting" at all. Consists should able to be made and broken on the fly.

 

[D&J RailRoad]

I think the best place that consisting would be used is when you have a A and B unit lashup. The B units usually stay with the lead loco. For the larger empires, the mixing of locos is quite frequent so the same two, three, four or whatever seldom happens.
Most DCC systems provide an easy consisting feature so it can be done with the hand held throttle.

 

[Selector]

....This gives me the pleasure of experiencing what the 1:1 steam had to do..
I'll leave it here and see who'll be the first to know why or to guess correctly why I operate a steam double-header this in this order.....
M

I do the same with a PCM Y6b and a BlueLine (BLI's early non-DCC sales) Class A. I put the A on the front, throttle off. The Y gets an initial 7-10 speed steps to bunch up the slack, and the A gets its initial 6 speed steps immediately afterward. By the time the A has begun to move, I know from experience that the Y on the rear will need another 8 speed steps to keep up, and I dutifully give 'er what she needs. From there, up the grade, both engines straining against the load, both with their separate chuff rhythms...what a sight!

Pillars of Smoke in the Sky is available, at least in part, on youtube if you search there. Other videos about the N&W's method, which other roads used as it was common, show the train led by a Class A come to a halt on the main, past the switch to a siding on which a Y pusher rested "in the hole." When the switch was lined correctly, the Y would move over the turnout and couple onto the rear of the consist awaiting the push. If the A had been trailing a wooden-framed caboose, the Y would back to couple to the caboose still left behind the turnout. Then it would advance to couple onto the rear of the string of hoppers. Whistles done to indicate readiness, and to signal the commencement of the shove, the A's engineer would whistle back to signal he was opening his throttle, and the whole would begin a slow acceleration in harmony, advancing up the Blue Ridge.

 

[MHinLA]

D&J, Ken, I admit I wasn't thinking of the coupler slack in the rest of train. I was deducting that the 2 loco begins first so that couplers between the two engines don't rip the knuckles off...IE 2nd is creating slack so 1st engine can then follow suit, the 2nd engine beginning to roll a litte faster, continuing until train fully underway.. car couplers now stretched...
Toots.. This is what I was getting at. But you were in the ballpark in post #28, anyway... 🛤

 

[tootnkumin]

Consists should able to be made and broken on the fly.

NCE does offer a method to apply when using a group of locos in a dedicated helper consist. They call it a "nesting consist". It uses both their "advanced consisting" (consist info stored in the decoder's CV19) and as they call it "old style consisting" (consist info stored in the base station) and build the helper consist as an old style (also known as universal?) The method is as follows:

Nesting consists: Say a heavy freight is approaching a long grade and helpers are needed. The train’s locomotives are an advanced consist. The two pushers are also consisted using an advanced consist.
The pusher consist is brought out of the siding at the base of the grade and put in place (coupled to the train).
An “old style” consist is now set up using the freight’s lead loco number and the pusher’s lead loco number.
You can now operate the entire train to the grade crest as one unit.
Upon reaching the cutoff siding at the crest,
the “old style” consist is killed and the pushers are selected (using the Helper's "Advanced consist") to move to the siding.
The freight consist continues (using the Lead loco Advanced consist)
on while the pushers drift back down the hill.

In step-by-step:
- NCE "Advanced Consist" the lead-loco set
- NCE "Advance Consist" the helper loco set
- then use "Old Style" consisting to link the Lead and Helper loco sets together as one "train"
When it comes time to "cut off the helpers",
simply delete the "Old-Style" (whole train) consist,
and drive the lead-loco and helper-loco (Advanced) consists off on their separate ways...

I tried not quite this once on the club layout with mid train helpers. It worked well, but I was using all Genesis 6 axle locos, but that of course, involved stopping the train to separate the 2 halves. If you have a situation where you have a dedicated helper set used as pushers, and have the front coupler locked in the open position so it can disengage easily, it might be possible to achieve the decoupling on the move, so long as the main train has clear track ahead, because both loco sets could still be responding to the advanced consist commands (I say, could) when the "Old Style" was killed (you think?) Then you could grab the helpers again and bring them to a halt. The instructions seem to imply this. I think there is too, a method in the NCE cab where you can toggle (scroll addresses and select) between advanced consists.

 

[cv_acr]

Nesting consists:

That's interesting. Not ever operating on layouts with helpers, I've never considered this.

On the other hand, such temporary helpers were actually independently manned by the helper crew, so I think most would just have the helper crew control the pushing, since you need that crew anyway to get the helpers in position and run them back down the hill etc.

Still an interesting approach though and there could be helpful situations for it. I could see detaching/adding a DPU remote set on a train with mid-train remotes that actually needs to make a set off or other switching move.

 

[CGW121]

I consist by programminging the locos I want run together to the same number. no fus no muss.