Little Dilemma


H

hamltnblue

Active Member
I have a little dilemma. I could be over reacting but my gut says no. I need a few opinions.
About 5 years ago I decided to join a club. I had previously attended their Christmas shows for several years with my kids but followed up on a flyer they had requesting new members.
While at the first meeting they noted my electronic background and they showed me their failed signaling system attempt. I told them I could get it running.
The existing system was a single board with nothing running. It did look pretty but that was useless if it did nothing.

I wound up joining and over the next year and a half I re-wired the entire 50x40 foot 4 track main layout for both detection and signaling. In the end there were about 16 hand built 4 track signal bridges with sixteen 4 track detection zones using digitrax equipment. The programming was done with a senior member of the club using JMRI. The system to this day works great.

Shortly after the project was completed I had an unfortunate illness resulting in an absence from the club for a year and a half. After my last surgery I visited the club and was happy to see the members. They were very supportive but one of the first things mentioned to me was they had a couple of ideas on how to clean up the wiring. My heart sunk on the spot. The detection and signaling has been working flawlessly since installed and the first thing they say is clean up the wiring under the layout? Who knows, maybe I'm over reacting but I'm also having a hard time returning.

Thoughts or comments?

Thanks


Here's a couple of pics of the signal bridges I built and wired.

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I don't really understand why you call this a dilemma. For a situation to present a dilemma, it must have three co-requisite criteria:
a. it presents a number of legal/moral options, all of which will result in some degree of harm;
b. you must choose one of the options because doing nothing is unacceptable, illegal, or immoral; and
c. the best/correct option is not immediately obvious.

I don't see that you owe them anything. They clearly don't understand what you have done, and what it will cost in so many ways for them to undo all you did for them. However, it could be that their priorities have changed some way and what you did for them looks odd or untidy, or is simply too complex for them to even think about figuring out and repairing if necessary.

If they have every shown pleasure in what you did, and if they ever thanked you, either severally and in private, or publicly as a group, then they owe you nothing. The intrinsic value for you is that they have used it successfully in the meantime and that it has performed, as you say, flawlessly.

So, something has changed...a new reality, a new direction, new leadership,.....something....

My counsel to you would be to give yourself some credit for doing what you did, and find a way to get past it. If they ever come to you for help to get the new system fixed, you can tell them politely that you did your best several years back and that your heart isn't in in any more (or simply tell them the truth...it's rarely the wrong thing to do).
 
I have several potential 'takes' on the comments made.

A)They liked your work on the signal system. It was probably something that they had desired to have completed for a number of years-but no one either had the knowledge or expertise to accomplish it-but you did. Hence, they were impressed by your work, and commitment. As for the wiring or the layout-this can be a big headache for a club, that has members come and go, and expands a layout incrementally. Maybe they'd like to go DCC, but don't know how to implement the conversion. They may feel that you're the man that can also get it done. Or;

B)While they like the work you did on the signal system, the players have changed, and your work on the signal system is old news. If this is the case, there may also be a portion of the club that wants a new layout, too.... If this is the case, might be time to politely decline their offer to get involved.

As Selector has indicated, if you're curious at all, as to which case it is, you could always attend a few meetings, and talk to the members, or member that mentioned the 'wiring upgrade.' It might be one person's perspective, or it might be the group. Who knows, if they like your work, they might want you to be 'club chairman.' Without more information, you'll never know.

I agree with wombat's comments below, also.
 
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The thing that stood out to me was them telling you that they had some ideas for cleaning up the wiring, yet they were evidently incapable of doing any of it at the time you joined them. I think I would be taken aback with that as well.

You mentioned that what they had done looked "pretty", which begs the questions: What do they want, operational or pretty? Which is more important to them functionality or appearance?

Apparently they like your Signal Bridges, as that wasn't the subject of their "concerns". That being the case, are the wires in plain site? Are they wired in such a way to be dangerous? Does the layout still work and function as it did when you first installed the wiring and signals? I can only assume the answers to those questions are NO, NO and YES respectively.

So, with that being said, it might be worth sitting down with them and listening to their "ideas". A lot can change over a year and a half and all it would take would be for one of those members to see another layout, wired a little differently yet no more effective, that he or they liked better for some reason. After listening to their thoughts, you have a couple of options:

1. Agree with what they say and do it, or
2. Put forward an argument for why their ideas shouldn't be implemented.

If you agree with their idea/s then all is well and you go on with the club and doing what you enjoy. If you don't agree with their ideas for realistic and legitimate reasons and they, in turn, still want to proceed with their ideas, then I would wish them well and move on.
 
i agree with wombat, it would not hurt to get someone to elaborate on what was actually meant. if it is as simple as the wiring is hanging down, looks like spaghetti or something to that effect they may be wanting that to be tidied up. dont take any offense to that, the wiring on my layout is still exposed. personally, if that is what they meant, they should have elected to do it. i wouldnt clean up the wires until i was satisfied that everything was in place and working properly. maybe they want to make a change. who knows.

i know in the few clubs that i have visited, looked into joining, there is always someone not happy with others work, and they also seem to be the ones who just show up to run trains. might be worth it to talk to a couple of other members casually, see if it is just one complainer, or if there is more to it than that.

someone always has to take the fun out of it.
 
Thanks
When I build the detection and signaling sections there was no place to mount them. So I put the BDL168's and SE8's on a piece of plywood at each location and laid them on a folding chair. Actually it's very serviceable since when anything goes wrong you simply pull the chair in the affected area from under the layout and you have full access to the wiring. I personally will never change it for sure. I'm just wondering if I will pay dues to continue additional work they want done.
The Signal bridges were the fun part. The detection required isolating the layout, including buku turnouts and installing numerous feeders to make it work. I'll sit on the edge for awhile but am leaning away at the moment. But I do like helping out and seeing the results. I'm also glad to have met the older gentleman who programmed the JMRI portion who for years wanted to have a detection and signaling system. He shows it off to everyone who visits. On the other hand my illness has put things Into perspective and I'm not sure I want to do work for people that don't appreciate it. All they had to do is say welcome back and not comment on little BS and I'd be fine.
Oh well I guess
 
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Well if I saw some electronics sitting on folding chairs I would want to change it out to something more appropriate.
 
I'm sorry hamltnblue but I have to agree with fcwilt.

What makes this a little alarming is your saying there was no where to mount them. For the life of me, I cannot see that being the case.

Granted, I don't know the layout you are talking about; however, I am yet to see a layout where there isn't somewhere that a BDL168 or SE8 cannot be mounted, even if that means having to put in a mounting board attached to the benchwork and run a little additional or longer wiring or, simply mount them to the bottom side of the substrate or benchwork fascia.
 
Maybe this will help.
The layout is modular and clamped together so it has no real rigid permanent mounting. They constantly talk about changes so that has to be factored in.
As far as the chairs picture the chairs with the electronics mounted on them and underneath the modular layout. There is a shroud in front of the modules to hide the wiring and electronics. If service is needed you simply pull the chair forward and all wiring and electronics are there for work. Works great if you don't have any young knowledgeable bucks available to work on things.
 
hamltnblue said:
Maybe this will help.
The layout is modular and clamped together so it has no real rigid permanent mounting. They constantly talk about changes so that has to be factored in.
As far as the chairs picture the chairs with the electronics mounted on them and underneath the modular layout. There is a shroud in front of the modules to hide the wiring and electronics. If service is needed you simply pull the chair forward and all wiring and electronics are there for work. Works great if you don't have any young knowledgeable bucks available to work on things.
Click to expand...

Well I would guess from your description that the signals, detectors, etc are on the module and the wiring runs to these boards which are just lying there on these folding chairs.

If that's the case I can still envision a number of better solutions.
 
Still agree with fcwilt; however, back to your original question/dilemma ...

It appears, from what you write, as though you believe that what you have done is suitable, appropriate and has no better solution. As such, if you were to go back to the club then you will most likely be continually confronted with further "dilemma's" of people wanting the wiring "cleaned up". That is not going to please you and, could possibly, cause confrontation.

If I were you, I'd leave and put it in the past for your own peace of mind. But also remember, there is always going to be someone who is going to be better at doing what we do than we are, no matter that what that "something" is - always, that is inevitable and just a part of life.
 
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Without seeing how the wiring beneath the layout is, it's difficult to make an objective comment regarding it's tidiness or otherwise. What I can say is that your signal bridges are a work of art. I can understand your point of view in regard to the accessibility of the components for ease of servicing, after working on my own cars since I was 18, I would hate to know how many car designers ears I have verballed over the years on that very issue.

I can imagine when you returned to the club after your bout of ill health and operation, the last thing on your mind would have been a request (even if only hinted at) to "tidy up" what you had put so much time and effort into. I would suggest that if you can put those feelings aside and view the statement as not being meant or said, to offend, or be ungrateful for what you have done for the club previously, but tell them that you feel that in your circumstances, you don't think it wise for you to undertake any of the physical work involved.

Sounds to me as though, quite frankly, they're glad to see you back, after all, obviously none of them understand the system you put in place and daren't touch it. If the boards sitting on chairs is their greatest concern, along with a few wires hanging down, then suggest to them (especially any carpenters among them) to come up with a way of say, hinging the boards by there top edge under the layout (just behind what looks like curtains), so they can be swung back up under the layout (secured by a simple chain and hook maybe), but able to be unhooked and swung down vertically to work on (detach the curtains if necessary). If the wires need lifting, bundle them up with plastic wire ties where possible and attach to the bottom of the layout.

BUT, only offer to supervise and offer advice, they must carry out the "donkey work". See what they say.
 
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Back in the early 1970s, I was part of a Army Reserve Unit, - a Railway operating Battalion - which made an arrangement to train at a near by tourist railroad, so that we could spend out time actually training on the railroad, instead of sitting around killing time in a classroom. The tourist line, which was financially strapped, welcomed Uncle Sam's money, and the labor / material from the Track Maintenance company, but in general the "members" resented our presence. They liked "bossing" the volunteers that showed up each weekend, but I suppose were intimidated by the knowledgeable professional railroad people within our ranks, that actually did things to improve their line.

A model railroad club, is an organization of "individuals", who while claiming to be like minded, have their own vision, of how the club should be run. You were able to provide these people with a working signal system, that enhanced their operation. Then you had the audacity, to become ill, and in their view, you never finished the job. Of course, no one offered to help, or give feedback, while you were working the project..........but I'm sure while you were unable to participate........or defend yourself, they had a lot to say about you and your work......

As someone else offered, the most vocal critics are the ones who do the least, but demand the most. You have to overlook / ignore the critics if you wish to participate in the club. If they really bother you, there are alternatives.

Joe
 
they asked you to build a working system, and you did. if they want it mounted, then let them have at it. if it is hidden, and easily serviceable some will not have a problem with that. some are going to complain about it in its current state, which may seem to be unfinished. the ones that are actually going to be around to service it when things go wrong may not mind it in its current state. sounds to be built for serviceability underneath.
 
I think it says a lot for your work that the system is still working after the builder has been away for over a year--it's way too common for something to go wrong, and nobody knows how to fix the most trivial thing, so all the hard work gets wasted. But boards left on chairs forever can't be the right mounting method (not to mention how it depletes the available furniture). I think the best approach would be to go in there with a positive attitude and say "Hi guys, glad my temporary mounting method stood the test of time. Now how about someone with carpentry skills and decent agility helping me fix things up even better?"
 
hamltnblue said:
Maybe this will help.
The layout is modular and clamped together ... They constantly talk about changes so that has to be factored in.
...
Click to expand...

Between what you have stated above, and what you stated in your second post where you shared more information, I see a significant disparity in opinion and vision between what you understand the club to want, or to need, and what they feel they need...or want. If it were me, I would leave well enough alone and let them figure out where to go from here. After all I/you have done, especially for a non-permanent setup, affixing more boards, electronics, hinges, and wiring to one or more modules increases the weight and unwieldiness of those modules, and increases the risk that future connections will result in electronic errors or outright damage, they need to determine something safer and more permanent that won't be moved inadvertently and have parts damaged.

IOW, I do agree somewhat with the others that merely leaving boards of plywood and mounted hardware on folding chairs under a layout is a bit untidy for most model railroaders who typically like things tucked up, tidy, and relatively bulletproof. On the other hand, you state that there is a marked tendency for non-permanence in that the modules are sometimes switched in or out, or that they are moved around. They aren't even held together by normal fasteners, but only with clamps.

If you find that the only bee in your bonnet is that they have pointed out an unacceptable aspect of your work, and that otherwise you like the group and what it offers you, why not meet with them and ask for some sort of roadmap (written and given to all members) that has the group consensus, one which you can use to continue to help them. If what they propose doesn't work for you, tell them so. You can add that you don't wish to be an impediment to their general vision, and that what you have contributed so far fits with what you understand to be their likely state of affairs for the foreseeable future. You have standards, both personal and professional, and what they are hoping you'll do doesn't meet those standards. Period.
 
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hamltnblue said:
Maybe this will help.
The layout is modular and clamped together so it has no real rigid permanent mounting. They constantly talk about changes so that has to be factored in.
Click to expand...

This was a point I had overlooked. If you decide to give it another go with this club, it seems they want to take advantage of the modular setup and have the ability to reconfigure the positions of the various modules to create different scenarios. This of course will mean there will be a need to have electrical connections between the modules, which would involve some type of plug and socket arrangement. Do you think this is what they are after? Do they understand the possible difficulties of securing the panels and wiring in such a way to the modules during such moves and reconnecting them, or even if in many rearrangements it would be impractically possible to reconnect them? It's one thing to expect or ask for a "tidy up" of the existing layout wiring arrangement and quite another to make something like you've done completely interchangeable and interactive.
 
Thanks all for the input.
For the time being I think I'll stay away. If I decide to return I'll simply ignore any requests or comments to change anything unless it's to add something.
Although modular the layout has been permanent for several years, but now and then things have been re-routed and modules replaced with updated ones.
If anyone here has ever worked or seen the SE8C and BDL168 there are a lot of wires involved. Changing it is no easy task.
 
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