Layout advice for L shape layout

[Resqnu]

I built 2 8x4 tables and arranged them into an L shape. I'm designing a HO layout for me and my 5 year old son. This will be our first DCC layout. Don't want anything too complicated but looking for ideas from you guys experience. I will have a few small roads on the outside or near the edge so he can move some autos around. I am looking for an outter rail for him and inner rail for me with some side tracks. I will be running 2-3 trains. I'm currently trying my hand at Railmodeler software designing my current layout. With the current layout, the industrial yard (on the right), the longest leg of the side tracks is 28" and the rest get shortened quickly. Would I be better off moving the industrial yard to the longest section (top sections) and moving the small top side tracks to the right side? It would give me longer side tracks to store idle trains.
I really need some advice on this as I'm beating myself up. Should I design the layout completely, then buy the tracks or should I go ahead and purchase the tracks to start laying out and adjust as needed? I prefer the last method, as it seems more fun and is hands on then the software way. I know I will probably change the layout as I go anyway to suit needs/wants.


I'm open on any suggestions for changing the layout to make it flow better and seem more realistic. I'm just ready to get my hands dirty and start laying the track.

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[otiscnj]

Res,

Welcome to the forum! You bring up several good questions. To start toward the end, I've always round that software can be helpful, however having a few real sections of track, and a few switches, makes things a lot easier. A 28" siding will hold about 4-5 50' cars, in HO. The curves you'll be using will most likely be fairly sharp at 22", 18" or 15" radius. Will the layout be accessible on all sides? An adult can reach about 24-30" on a good day, less for a child. I don't think you'll be able to do quite what you've drawn, but you may be able to approximate it to some degree. Have you looked at any track plans in books or on the internet for the size space you have? Sometimes that will give you ideas. I'm sure others will chime in soon. Let us know how you're doing!

 

[Iron Horseman]

II'm currently trying my hand at Railmodeler software designing my current layout. With the current layout, the industrial yard (on the right), the longest leg of the side tracks is 28" and the rest get shortened quickly.

Hmm I see that now. The yard ladder could be made shorter using a compound switch arrangement.

Would I be better off moving the industrial yard to the longest section (top sections) and moving the small top side tracks to the right side? It would give me longer side tracks to store idle trains.

That would be better if longer tracks for storing idle trains is important to you.

I really need some advice on this as I'm beating myself up. Should I design the layout completely, then buy the tracks or should I go ahead and purchase the tracks to start laying out and adjust as needed? I prefer the last method, as it seems more fun and is hands on then the software way. I know I will probably change the layout as I go anyway to suit needs/wants.

Hmmm, a couple thoughts. First is that earlier you said you were going to use flex track. Flex track doesn't lend itself to laying as you go, it sort of needs a plan. Likewise it is not that easy to change. Second is that re-laying track plans over and over has been one of my favorite parts of the hobby. With sectional track I used to thumb tack down a layout directly onto the plywood, run it for a few months, repeat. I remembered all the cool aspects of each and tried to incorporate those ideas. Eventually I figured out what I liked, what worked and what didn't. Then I actually made a final plan laid down the cork and went to flex track. The disadvantage of that is the closest I came to scenery during that time was Plasticville buildings placed along painted roads with painted grass.....

I'm open on any suggestions for changing the layout to make it flow better and seem more realistic.

Flowing better and being more realistic might be at opposite ends of the scale Tomorrow night I'll doodle together your original plan with some planning software and see if I can figure out how you are ending up with only 28" of long yard track. When helping folks I usually always start with the original plan and ease into suggestions. Too many suggestions too quickly is often just confusing and yields a confusing mess, and often that doesn't translate to what will work for YOU and meet your needs.

 

[Resqnu]

Res,

Welcome to the forum! You bring up several good questions. To start toward the end, I've always round that software can be helpful, however having a few real sections of track, and a few switches, makes things a lot easier. A 28" siding will hold about 4-5 50' cars, in HO. The curves you'll be using will most likely be fairly sharp at 22", 18" or 15" radius. Will the layout be accessible on all sides? An adult can reach about 24-30" on a good day, less for a child. I don't think you'll be able to do quite what you've drawn, but you may be able to approximate it to some degree. Have you looked at any track plans in books or on the internet for the size space you have? Sometimes that will give you ideas. I'm sure others will chime in soon. Let us know how you're doing!

Thanks,
The layout will be accessible from all sides. The L shape tables are in the middle of the room. I've looked in a few book and searched the internet and still looking. Haven't found much on the l shape layouts. Main thing we want is 2 tracks with several side racks. I am vey open I the layout.



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[Bruette]

...re-laying track plans over and over has been one of my favorite parts of the hobby.

I agree !00% with the Iron Horsemen!!! I have spent more time fiddling around with laying track plans then I have any other aspect of my hobby and my grandsons love playing with track set up too!

The idea of roads on the outside to play with cars for the little ones is brilliant!!! I did not have that in my original plans, but my grandson and his matchbox cars soon showed me I needed roads on the outside. Kids don't care about scale accuracy or era. What's wrong with batman's bat mobile on my layout?

I try to incorporate my grandsons ideas into my layout and sectional track is perfect for this. I am no where near having a 'finished" layout because my grandson and I are always tweaking the plans. Me even more then him! http://tracks.lionel.com/5-rules-for-introducing-kids-to-model-trains/ That is a link to an article I read and here is a paragraph I cut and pasted.
Let their personality and creativity shine: Kids are creative. They may not pay attention to the same amount of detail that we do as adults, but you’d be surprised at the level of detail they can conjure when given the opportunity. Allowing your child to decide how the track is placed and what the layout looks like gives him or her a chance to showcase their personality and creativity. It’s best not to attach track or any landscape to the layout permanently because it restricts your child’s ability to experiment with different layouts.

The way I see it is after my grandsons lose interest in trains and I think they will eventually because even now there interest comes and goes. Then I will develop a permanent plan for me to try to "finish' my layout. In the mean time I think it is important to develop their love of trains because one day, like I and so many other have they will come back to the hobby on their own terms, when they are more settled and have time and space to do it "right"

I think the window to play with trains with my boys won't be open forever. It's most important to share the time we have because like my children my grandsons will grow up and be busy with their lives. I will have plenty of time to build a permanent layout, all by myself. Like my kids my grandsons will have time to play with me here and there, but I know I will be mostly on my own soon enough.

Maybe one day I will buy flex track and make it look realistic, but I doubt that because I have seen people ballast Lionel's FasTrack and Bachmann's EZ track and it looks real enough for me. If I do go with flex track I won't regret the money I spent on snap fit track with road bed because I will never forget the crazy silly ideas my grandsons and I set up together. I consider it money well spent.

If I were you I would buy this set http://www.amazon.com/Bachmann-Trains-Digital-Commander-Ready/dp/B000BPPNWE

and this track pack http://www.amazon.com/Bachmann-Trai...sr=1-2&keywords=bachmann+world+greatest+hobby it even comes with DVD to introduce you to the hobby.

Then have fun with your son playing with trains and track plans!!

For Under $350 you will have everything you need to get started, a basic DCC controller and power supply, 2 DCC equipped locomotives, rolling stock, and more then enough track to get you started. I don't think there is a better value in HO. Now if you want to talk about Lionel O and the new LionChief sets I think that is best for kids or the new Lionel Batman subway set, but this HO stuff is great too! I have both O and HO even an N scale Christmas train.

It won't be money wasted, if nothing else it will be a learning experience and I can almost guarantee your 5 year old will enjoy it because I know from experience both of my 5 and 6 year old grandson have.

What ever you decide thanks for sharing your hobby with us and keep us posted.

 

[gregc]

The layout will be accessible from all sides. The L shape tables are in the middle of the room.

you may have more possibilities -- Layout Vision

 

[Resqnu]

Hmm I see that now. The yard ladder could be made shorter using a compound switch arrangement.

I am open to any suggestions.

That would be better if longer tracks for storing idle trains is important to you.

Didn't know if that would be a better overall layout. Again, I'm open to any suggestions.

Hmmm, a couple thoughts. First is that earlier you said you were going to use flex track. Flex track doesn't lend itself to laying as you go, it sort of needs a plan. Likewise it is not that easy to change. Second is that re-laying track plans over and over has been one of my favorite parts of the hobby. With sectional track I used to thumb tack down a layout directly onto the plywood, run it for a few months, repeat. I remembered all the cool aspects of each and tried to incorporate those ideas. Eventually I figured out what I liked, what worked and what didn't. Then I actually made a final plan laid down the cork and went to flex track. The disadvantage of that is the closest I came to scenery during that time was Plasticville buildings placed along painted roads with painted grass.....

I am/was planning on using flex track due to some recommending and reading. If flex track is used, i would tack down the layout so I could change the layout until the final design was decided. I figured that flex would allow the track layout to be more flexible in laying out. If flex track would be more difficult to lay down and change designs, I am open to using regular tracks if that is recommended. Guess I thought it would be more economical using flex. You point out a good point about being able to layout, run, and change the layout as much as needed. I can see where this would be a lot of fun changing layouts. I originally was figuring on laying out and running for a while.

Flowing better and being more realistic might be at opposite ends of the scale

I can understand that.

Tomorrow night I'll doodle together your original plan with some planning software and see if I can figure out how you are ending up with only 28" of long yard track. When helping folks I usually always start with the original plan and ease into suggestions. Too many suggestions too quickly is often just confusing and yields a confusing mess, and often that doesn't translate to what will work for YOU and meet your needs.

That would be awesome and very appreciated. I am open to all ideas. My only needs I want is:
2 tracks (inner & outer) with crossovers
some side tracks/staging yards
Some road on the outside and inner for my son to play with his cars
RR crossing on the outside edge for son as well.

 

[fcwilt]

Get hold of a CAD program aimed at layout design and use that.

It's the easiest way to insure that what you draw will actually fit in the space you have with no "shortcuts" leading to poor track work.

My layout was completely designed in 3rdPlanIt (http://www.trackplanning.com/3pi.htm) before I started anything and the design included detailed bench work and scenery.

Everything went together without a hitch.

Now with a number of free CAD programs out there I don't really expect you will spend the money on 3rdPlanIt but at least get one of the free ones.

 

[Iron Horseman]

That would be awesome and very appreciated. I am open to all ideas. My only needs I want is:
2 tracks (inner & outer) with crossovers
some side tracks/staging yards
Some road on the outside and inner for my son to play with his cars
RR crossing on the outside edge for son as well.

OK, as promised here is my an interpretation of your original plan as done with Atlas sectional track (only a couple pieces of flex in there where I got lazy ). Yup, I got the same short sidings on the right side, so I angled them. Also used a compound ladder to get all four tracks in. Now I'll ponder on your requirements and see what I can come up with.

 

[Resqnu]

The idea of roads on the outside to play with cars for the little ones is brilliant!!! I did not have that in my original plans, but my grandson and his matchbox cars soon showed me I needed roads on the outside. Kids don't care about scale accuracy or era. What's wrong with batman's bat mobile on my layout?

I can't take credit for the idea. A friend of mine did that for his son. My son went over and played on his layout and had a blast. Roads for him to play on is a must for him. And for me, it's all about what he wants to be able to interact with the layout. Absolutely nothing wrong with the Bat mobile on the layout. I can only image the mixture of cars that will be on ours...lol. It's all about having fun and quality time with my little man.

I try to incorporate my grandsons ideas into my layout and sectional track is perfect for this. I am no where near having a 'finished" layout because my grandson and I are always tweaking the plans. Me even more then him! http://tracks.lionel.com/5-rules-for-introducing-kids-to-model-trains/ That is a link to an article I read and here is a paragraph I cut and pasted.

Great article and thanks for sharing. I plan on incorporating his ideas into the layout. for him it is more about being able to interact right now. I took him to a train show and he went crazy. Told me he wants a layout like he saw. Meaning, a realistic looking layout. So i figure we will put together a nice layout we can both be happy with and run it for a while. Add some roads, houses and trees, make a few changes and then bring it to life with realistic 3d landscaping (if that is the correct term).

The way I see it is after my grandsons lose interest in trains and I think they will eventually because even now there interest comes and goes. Then I will develop a permanent plan for me to try to "finish' my layout. In the mean time I think it is important to develop their love of trains because one day, like I and so many other have they will come back to the hobby on their own terms, when they are more settled and have time and space to do it "right"

Totally agree. I'm just looking for a good starting layout that is a little advanced and want be boring for us. He seems to want a more realistic track for what he calls (his expensive trains). He currently builds his own layouts EVERYDAY with the PowerTrains sets and runs his trains all over the house. I'm looking into purchasing a NCE Powercab so we can both enjoy the fun dcc experience with controlling several trains with sound. Since he has a ton of trains and tracks to play with on his own, I'm thinking of us building our HO track more realistic for him as he really seems to want one.

Then have fun with your son playing with trains and track plans!!

For Under $350 you will have everything you need to get started, a basic DCC controller and power supply, 2 DCC equipped locomotives, rolling stock, and more then enough track to get you started. I don't think there is a better value in HO. Now if you want to talk about Lionel O and the new LionChief sets I think that is best for kids or the new Lionel Batman subway set, but this HO stuff is great too! I have both O and HO even an N scale Christmas train.

It won't be money wasted, if nothing else it will be a learning experience and I can almost guarantee your 5 year old will enjoy it because I know from experience both of my 5 and 6 year old grandson have.

Great to here and with looking into.

What ever you decide thanks for sharing your hobby with us and keep us posted

Will do and thanks for your time and info.

 

[Resqnu]

you may have more possibilities -- Layout Vision

Thanks for the info, greg

 

[Resqnu]

Get hold of a CAD program aimed at layout design and use that.

It's the easiest way to insure that what you draw will actually fit in the space you have with no "shortcuts" leading to poor track work.

My layout was completely designed in 3rdPlanIt (http://www.trackplanning.com/3pi.htm) before I started anything and the design included detailed bench work and scenery.

Everything went together without a hitch.

Now with a number of free CAD programs out there I don't really except you will spend the money on 3rdPlanIt but at least get one of the free ones.

Thanks for the info. I'm currently experimenting with Railmodeler program, but will look into this one.

 

[Resqnu]

OK, as promised here is my original interpretation of your original plan as done with Atlas sectional track (only a couple pieces of flex in there where I got lazy ). Yup, I got the same short sidings on the right side, so I angled them. Also used a compound ladder to get all four tracks in. Now I'll ponder on your requirements and see what I can come up with.
View attachment 45509

Iron Horse, wow!!, nothing about that looks lazy. I can't express my appreciation for you doing this. Love the layout, it looks awesome!! Exactly what we wanted, my son loves it. The angled sidings look great and like where you put the structures. Can you explain a compound ladder?

Now I'll ponder on your requirements and see what I can come up with.

My only needs I want is:
2 tracks (inner & outer) with crossovers---Check
some side tracks/staging yards---Check
Some road on the outside and inner for my son to play with his cars---Check
RR crossing on the outside edge for son as well---Check
Looks like to got them all

I am ready to lay some tracks now. Would you recommend sectional or flex track? I have no personal preference and will go with your recommendation. I would tack down either track on the layout so I could change the layout if needed. I hate to ask, but can you give me a list of tracks and any parts needed for this layout and I will place the order.

 

[Iron Horseman]

Can you explain a compound ladder?

A normal ladder starts with a single turnout of one direction (lets say a left hand). The rest of the ladder is built off of that one with the opposite type of turnout (right hands in this example). Each additional track consumes the distance of the new turnout. A compound ladder starts with two turnouts of the same direction. This doubles the angle of departure so each additional turnout consumes less room. This also causes spaces between the parallel rails so a third turnout of the same direction is put right after the original.

Notice how I did it has two turnouts off the main instead of just one. Since your yard is only 4 tracks it is hard to see how a full blown compound ladder would work, but in general the space spent on the actual turnouts is less allowing the yard tracks to be longer. So I made a diagram. The red line shows the point at which all tracks have full capacity.



A couple things should be pointed out.
1. The first few tracks on the standard ladder are longer, so there is a trade off when designing smaller yards. I don't know where the car capacity cut off is, but I think this example is right on the edge.
2. The more yard tracks there are the more capacity a compound ladder makes. This is because the last track is longer.
3. The bigger the turnouts the more space is saved with a compound ladder. Since this example is with #3s it is questionable in this space. Had I built it with #6 turnouts I don't think the last track of the standard ladder would have any length at all.

 

[Resqnu]

A normal ladder starts with a single turnout of one direction (lets say a right hand). The rest of the ladder is built off of that one with the opposite type of turnout (left hands in this example). Each additional track consumes the distance of the new turnout. A compound ladder starts with two turnouts of the same direction. This doubles the angle of departure so each additional turnout consumes less room. This also causes spaces between the parallel rails so a third turnout of the same direction is put right after the original.

Notice how I did it has two turnouts off the main instead of just one. Since your yard is only 4 tracks it is hard to see how a full blown compound ladder would work, but in general the space spent on the actual turnouts is less allowing the yard tracks to be longer.

Well explained..thanks

 

[Iron Horseman]

Looks like to got them all

Well, you got them all, I just put sectional track to them.

And, Yeah all the points were hit, but I think it can be better.

I am ready to lay some tracks now. Would you recommend sectional or flex track? I have no personal preference and will go with your recommendation. I would tack down either track on the layout so I could change the layout if needed. I hate to ask, but can you give me a list of tracks and any parts needed for this layout and I will place the order.

As fate would have it this tool I use keeps a parts list. I will figure out how to extract that into a postable format and get it to you. However I don't think I'll be able to do that until Friday night.

 

[Resqnu]

Well, you got them all, I just put sectional track to them.

You did the hard part.

And, Yeah all the points were hit, but I think it can be better.

I'm open to ANY recommendations to make it better. That layout is the general idea. Anything can be moved around to make it better.

As fate would have it this tool I use keeps a parts list. I will figure out how to extract that into a postable format and get it to you. However I don't think I'll be able to do that until Friday night.

No worries, not rushing at all, just excited. Take your time. I'm open to using you recommendation of sectional or flex track. What are the pros/cons of using sectional vs flex track? I have 10 new 36" flex track I can use if needed that were given to me. No worries if we don't use them. I appreciate you time helping.

 

[Bruette]

It sounds to me like you and your boy are going to have a lot of fun and if you ask me that makes your layout perfect!

 

[Resqnu]

It sounds to me like you and your boy are going to have a lot of fun and if you ask me that makes your layout perfect!

Thanks Bruette. That is the plan, to enjoy and have a blast together. We build his (play) trains in the floor daily. Says he wants his (expensive) trains like what he saw at the train show. He is crazy about trains. We have to make special trips to the train crossing in our area, just so he can watch and name all the cars as they go by.

 

[Bruette]

Thanks for telling us, that is a fantastic thing to hear!