Laser cutting machine

[kgstakes]

Do any of you use a laser to cut structures or other items for your railroad or other hobbies?
I've looking at them for years and keep wishing. Just don't know if I would be able to one, learn the software required to use one. Two use it enough to warrant the cost. I would probably use a laser to design structures and dioramas, with my scale horse drawn vehicles it would be nice to have the laser cut some of the parts out instead of having to do it all by hand.

They are expensive compared to my other hobby tools I have, but would purchase one if the learn curve was fairly easy and would be easy enough to set up and run.

What are your thoughts? I know some of you do 3D printing but I'm more of a wood guy and would rather work with basswood and other laser compatible products.

I just feel a 3D printer deals with more chemicals to clean parts (that's what I think correct me if wrong) and just don't want to deal with that stuff.

Please let me know what you think about lasers and also give me your opinions on 3D printing as well. I've always thought (course I'm not educated on them) that if you 3D print something, you can't do any detailing to the inside of a 3D printed structure for instance.

Look forward to any advice, criticism, what ever.

Educate me please.

Kurt
KG Miniature Workshop
KG & B Railway

 

[J_Mangle]

I can answer more about 3D printing, but I'll start with the lasers, because I don't know as much about them.

I bought a cheap (as in the cheapest) laser engraver. The software was free (it's open source) and reasonably easy to use. Now, that said, I'm only engraving. It's the same process for laser cutting, but like you said, far more expensive. What I'm saying is, consider getting a cheap laser engraver and see if you like it, because it's the same process to go to cutting. The engraver is very good for detail work (like etching shingles or siding). I mainly use mine for work-related things like engraving tags and labels.

Now, for the 3D printing - you're thinking about resin printers. They produce extremely detailed models - like, extremely detailed - they look like something manufactured professionally. If you want to model small scales, they'll be what you want. And yes, they are harder to use.

However, if you're willing to work around layer-lines, or you deal in larger scales, FDM (fused deposition modeling) 3D printers are cheap as hell and just use simple plastic filament. (Looks like weed-whacker string.) If you're printing in PLA (an easy to print plastic) they aren't particularly nasty, most people don't bother venting it. If you print in ABS (a high strength thermoplastic), I advise you do it in a garage or you vent it to the outside - most people don't, but I do.

You can sand prints, use a solder iron or heat gun, or, with ABS, smooth them with acetone. If you put enough paint on them, you don't see the lines from the layers.

The white prints on the green background are considered relatively high quality for FDM printers. The valve would be considered high quality for an FDM printer. The multi-colored prints would be considered average or even low quality. The builder's plate is an example of using acetone to smooth an ABS print.

All that said, the hardest part with 3D printing is making the CAD model. You can download free models from GrabCAD or Thingiverse. There are free and simple CAD programs like TinkerCAD. Either way, you can get a cheap 3D printer for like $150, and you can find reputable cheap ones for as low as $300.

 

[kgstakes]

I can answer more about 3D printing, but I'll start with the lasers, because I don't know as much about them.

I bought a cheap (as in the cheapest) laser engraver. The software was free (it's open source) and reasonably easy to use. Now, that said, I'm only engraving. It's the same process for laser cutting, but like you said, far more expensive. What I'm saying is, consider getting a cheap laser engraver and see if you like it, because it's the same process to go to cutting. The engraver is very good for detail work (like etching shingles or siding). I mainly use mine for work-related things like engraving tags and labels.

Now, for the 3D printing - you're thinking about resin printers. They produce extremely detailed models - like, extremely detailed - they look like something manufactured professionally. If you want to model small scales, they'll be what you want. And yes, they are harder to use.

However, if you're willing to work around layer-lines, or you deal in larger scales, FDM (fused deposition modeling) 3D printers are cheap as hell and just use simple plastic filament. (Looks like weed-whacker string.) If you're printing in PLA (an easy to print plastic) they aren't particularly nasty, most people don't bother venting it. If you print in ABS (a high strength thermoplastic), I advise you do it in a garage or you vent it to the outside - most people don't, but I do.

You can sand prints, use a solder iron or heat gun, or, with ABS, smooth them with acetone. If you put enough paint on them, you don't see the lines from the layers.

The white prints on the green background are considered relatively high quality for FDM printers. The valve would be considered high quality for an FDM printer. The multi-colored prints would be considered average or even low quality. The builder's plate is an example of using acetone to smooth an ABS print.

All that said, the hardest part with 3D printing is making the CAD model. You can download free models from GrabCAD or Thingiverse. There are free and simple CAD programs like TinkerCAD. Either way, you can get a cheap 3D printer for like $150, and you can find reputable cheap ones for as low as $300.

With 3D printing I thought you had to have another machine to cure the plastic so it will be harden. Not so?

I’ve used autoCad at previous jobs but that was years ago. Like 20+ and to own that software is expensive. I’ve seen others that are less and tinkerware was one of them. I’m using more of freecad something like that not sure at the moment.

I’ve done allot of things in wood and that’s why I was looking at lasers. But like you say you have to draw the part you want which in my mind is have the fun.

I like the idea of making your own name plates that I would be interested in for my different projects. Barrels crates and other detail parts a 3D printer would come in handy. Details for a layout or even a diorama can add up $$ pretty quickly so doing that yourself wold be nice.

Thanks for the information and you’ve made some pretty cool stuff!!

 

[J_Mangle]

With 3D printing I thought you had to have another machine to cure the plastic so it will be harden. Not so?

I’ve used autoCad at previous jobs but that was years ago. Like 20+ and to own that software is expensive. I’ve seen others that are less and tinkerware was one of them. I’m using more of freecad something like that not sure at the moment.

I’ve done allot of things in wood and that’s why I was looking at lasers. But like you say you have to draw the part you want which in my mind is have the fun.

I like the idea of making your own name plates that I would be interested in for my different projects. Barrels crates and other detail parts a 3D printer would come in handy. Details for a layout or even a diorama can add up $$ pretty quickly so doing that yourself wold be nice.

Thanks for the information and you’ve made some pretty cool stuff!!

With FDM printing, like the images I sent, it's more or less the CNC version of a hot-glue gun. No added chemicals to cure the plastic, it just melts it, puts it in a very specific location, and lets it solidify. The resin printers use UV light to cure their prints, but it's done by the machine - they cure it layer by layer.

I have AutoCAD 3D (work related), and I can't say I'm a fan of it for 3D printing. I use SolidWorks (also from work), and it's not too bad. I think you can get a yearly "personal and small business" version for like $50, but for most people, the free softwares are just fine - in fact, they're much, much easier to use.

Name plates work well with 3D printing, you can make the text 3D or you can inset it. Attached images have some 3D text on them.

 

[kgstakes]

With FDM printing, like the images I sent, it's more or less the CNC version of a hot-glue gun. No added chemicals to cure the plastic, it just melts it, puts it in a very specific location, and lets it solidify. The resin printers use UV light to cure their prints, but it's done by the machine - they cure it layer by layer.

I have AutoCAD 3D (work related), and I can't say I'm a fan of it for 3D printing. I use SolidWorks (also from work), and it's not too bad. I think you can get a yearly "personal and small business" version for like $50, but for most people, the free softwares are just fine - in fact, they're much, much easier to use.

Name plates work well with 3D printing, you can make the text 3D or you can inset it. Attached images have some 3D text on them.

Now are you painting the letters or a different color plastic?

How small can you print stuff? 1/16? 1/32? And still be readable

What’s the (hate to say it) cheapest someone can get into 3D printing and still get good quality prints. That’s the main thing quality prints.

 

[kgstakes]

With FDM printing, like the images I sent, it's more or less the CNC version of a hot-glue gun. No added chemicals to cure the plastic, it just melts it, puts it in a very specific location, and lets it solidify. The resin printers use UV light to cure their prints, but it's done by the machine - they cure it layer by layer.

I have AutoCAD 3D (work related), and I can't say I'm a fan of it for 3D printing. I use SolidWorks (also from work), and it's not too bad. I think you can get a yearly "personal and small business" version for like $50, but for most people, the free softwares are just fine - in fact, they're much, much easier to use.

Name plates work well with 3D printing, you can make the text 3D or you can inset it. Attached images have some 3D text on them.

I’ve been using sketchup for all kinds all drawings but is it good enough for 3D printing?

 

[ctclibby]

I’ve been using sketchup for all kinds all drawings but is it good enough for 3D printing?

I do not use SketchUp but know that the laser printers I use have a ...um... different type input file format - you can't just DXF out to get-r-done. For FDM or resin, you will be using a slicer on your 3D drawing, so look into that 1st if you go that route. Others here can probably help you out with that.

If you are looking for a laser printer ( not FDM or resin ), most have options to also get LightBurn as part of the package. That costs $60 ( I think ) to get, then $25 year there after. LightBurn is set up for your specific printer. Like you, many moons ago I used AutoCad ( v2.62 ) and getting used to LightBurn did not take all that long. Of course, it does not have all the bells and whistles of ACad.

The latest printer I got uses 'stacked' lasers for additional power and can be upgraded if needed. Currently mine can cut 5/16" plywood which for me is overkill. It breezes through 3/32" basswood or 1/16" plastic. I have even reduced dimensional 1" x 12" fir/pine with a planer to the wanted thickness and used that with the printer. 1/2" x 12" would have been better, but I did not have and did not want to go to HD just for wood. If you don't get your head speed/power tweaked just right, you need to deal with smoke and burnt edges. Keep a small notebook with setup information for each wood type and thickness once tweaked proper.

The guys that are using resin printers have done some wonderful projects although I just can't get past the 8 to 16+ hour print time for those bigger things and of course all the fumes and such with resin. In my case only, it makes no sense to me to use either FDM or resin to build a flat wall for anything when you can cut plastic or wood in a very small percentage of time as compared to the other two and glue things together.

I suspect that if you go with one of the smaller laser's, you will find a plethora of stuff to do with it. I have not done it yet, but am planning on using the FDM printer for those small details you just can't laser.

My 1st cutter was a $240 kit, 2nd $420 kit. 1st will do 20" x 24", 2nd 34" x 44". Both kits were easy to assemble although the directions of the 2nd had small pictures that you had to figure out before. Oh, and use some kind of metal painted black underneath the thing or you will have other issues. Those expanded metal grid's you should be able to buy with the printer work fine, but spendy. I thought about expanded steel, but no way to keep it [almost] perfectly flat and easy to remove for clean up.

Have fun!

L8r

 

[J_Mangle]

Now are you painting the letters or a different color plastic?

How small can you print stuff? 1/16? 1/32? And still be readable

What’s the (hate to say it) cheapest someone can get into 3D printing and still get good quality prints. That’s the main thing quality prints.

Sometimes I paint the letters, like you would a metal casting, sometimes I print the letters in a different color plastic. The builder's plate above used painted letters, the baby on board signs used different plastic.

The smallest letters I've printed were about 2mm tall (the letter height), but I could probably go lower. Your results will vary, however, I'm using a very high dollar machine. If you do resin printing, you can probably print letters so small that you can't read them without a magnifying glass. A few of my friends with live steam engines use resin-printed builders plates and those things are tiny and detailed.

If you want quality, I wouldn't go cheaper than a FlashForge or some other brand that's well know - they are like $300 on Amazon. It's a sliding scale - you get what you pay for. And, you can trade reliability for cost - you can get crazy good prints if you're willing for a print the size of a pill bottle to take 2 days. You can also get good results with cheap printers if you're willing to really tinker with them.

But, like I said, if ultimate quality is what you're after - like if you're doing anything smaller than maybe On30, consider getting a resin printer. You'll be able to rival commercial produced items.

I haven't used sketchup, but if the program allows you to make a 3d file and export an STL, as long as the file is the shape you want it to be, it'll get the job done. I've used some horrible CAD programs before and gotten great results because the objects were simple. The brightly colored print above - it's all made of cylinders and rectangular prisms - it didn't need any sort of fancy program. Once the STL file is made, the printer doesn't know what program was used to make it.

...

The guys that are using resin printers have done some wonderful projects although I just can't get past the 8 to 16+ hour print time for those bigger things and of course all the fumes and such with resin. In my case only, it makes no sense to me to use either FDM or resin to build a flat wall for anything when you can cut plastic or wood in a very small percentage of time as compared to the other two and glue things together.

...

Yeah, quality takes a long time. Those white plastic column saddles on the green background that I posted above take about 45 minutes each. I print them in packs of 30 and it takes a day. If it were for my use, I'd print them at lower quality and do post-processing to make them look good, but I've been selling them on eBay, so it's better to just sell the higher quality item.

For venting, I 3D printed a barrier that allows me to close the window on it, and the barrier has holes for my ventilation tubes. Each machine (laser, printer, etc.) gets its own small DC vent fan. I even use the fans when painting or doing anything with heat/chemicals. Even sanding, I don't want to breathe in the microplastics.

And you're absolutely correct, and I may be upgrading to a laser cutter from my laser engraver - I'm making a plate girder bridge, and it's just insane to 3D print flat sheets. I actually started using cardboard sheets for the webs, with 3D printed flanges - the cardboard press-fits in and they're very strong - so it would be easy to just replace the cardboard with superior cut plastic or thin plywood.

Youtube is a pretty good place to see how 3D printing works - what people are actually doing.

 

[kgstakes]

J_Mangle​

thank you for all your help and information. I'll do further research (web) and see if I really want to go that route (3D printing) or basically do what I've been doing and that's tablesaw, lathe, drill press, etc. for my miniatures and model structures. I'm thinking it would be a nice addition to the other tools I have now and if I did get a laser (that's what I'm leaning towards) I would more than liking set up a website and also sell stuff on ebay or esty, websites like that to get more out of the machine and help pay for it (course that would take a long time with miniatures).

I like building things, don't really matter what but like I said before my background is woodworking and most of my miniatures have been out of wood. Even most of my kits that I've built, have been wood kits.

Here are some of my miniatures that I've built from scratch.

This building I drew up in sketchup and then cut it out on my wife cricut. Worked pretty good and for a simple structure it was fine for the cricut to cut. Made from 1/16" clapboard siding (basswood). With the cricut, you have to put the piece you want to cut face down because of the thickness and the way the blade cuts. Multiple cuts as it runs to get all the way through the wood and the cut gets wider the deeper it goes so having it face down all your openings are the right size for doors and windows.

 

[J_Mangle]

J_Mangle​

thank you for all your help and information. I'll do further research (web) and see if I really want to go that route (3D printing) or basically do what I've been doing and that's tablesaw, lathe, drill press, etc. for my miniatures and model structures. I'm thinking it would be a nice addition to the other tools I have now and if I did get a laser (that's what I'm leaning towards) I would more than liking set up a website and also sell stuff on ebay or esty, websites like that to get more out of the machine and help pay for it (course that would take a long time with miniatures).

I like building things, don't really matter what but like I said before my background is woodworking and most of my miniatures have been out of wood. Even most of my kits that I've built, have been wood kits.

Here are some of my miniatures that I've built from scratch.

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This building I drew up in sketchup and then cut it out on my wife cricut. Worked pretty good and for a simple structure it was fine for the cricut to cut. Made from 1/16" clapboard siding (basswood). With the cricut, you have to put the piece you want to cut face down because of the thickness and the way the blade cuts. Multiple cuts as it runs to get all the way through the wood and the cut gets wider the deeper it goes so having it face down all your openings are the right size for doors and windows.

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Yeah, those are Etsy quality. (Etsy tends to have the higher-quality and museum quality items).
That table is remarkable.
I haven't sold squat on Etsy because it doesn't seem to have much of a railroad following. I have been doing pretty well on eBay, but I'm just starting with that. Many years ago I had a 3D printing company, but my customers were all industrial (mainly nuclear power plants - I made instructional models and mock-ups to be used to test fit designs.).
I may try jacking my laser engraver up to 11 and seeing if it can "score" balsa wood deep enough that I can more or less snap it along those lines - like I said, my engraver is the cheapest one I could find.
For what it's worth, if you're just trying to 3D print small quantities as add-ons to things you're selling, it would make sense to contact someone on eBay who sells prints and just order a custom print.
Look online and you'll find a few people selling completed structures, like the shop you posted above. Sometimes they sell for a LOT, especially in larger scales like O and G.

 

[traiNscale]

hi

i have a laser cutter, its a Xtool S1 40W, it was not cheap but worth the money.
iam using it for creating structures or little fun things. the software iam using is light burn.

i also have a 3D resin printer (Saturn 4 Ultra) this iam using for small parts or details for my modelrailroad projects.

 

[J_Mangle]

You could absolutely sell those shelves.

 

[traiNscale]

You could absolutely sell those shelves.

i have to tweak it maybe a little but maybe i could do this yes.
as just a little side hustle

i still have to finish the small house (thats N Scale). but it needs some tweaks to finish.