Interesting track plan, Tupper Lake & Faust Junction

[Iron Horseman]

I plan on having 6-8 staging tracks, and they will most likely be located below that central peninsula, and most likely accessed from a lowest loop in that helix structure.

I immediately thought of your Train-Shed when I first saw this plan. And exactly what I meant when I suggested ditching the loop on the center island.

 

[beiland]

Thanks for the additional photos. Quite the layout. I do agree with Greg on a couple of things. The layout is a bit crowded, but it's his layout, he's the boss.

The isles also do seem to be a bit narrow. If he's a lone operator, it probably isn't a problem. Narrow isles are a problem at the model railroad club I go to in Livingston. Some of us old guys have a tight squeeze from time to time passing each other in the isles. Just holler, "suck it in".

To my limited knowledge the owner does have several friends that assisted him in building the layout, and they do have some operating seasons together,...but not the 'traditional' switching type. There is one tight spot in that center aisle that I believe was slightly less than 18". You can see a chair in the background there that allowed the older, heaver set fellow I was with sit down while the owner and myself stood to watch the trains. I would have been fine with it as a sole operater, which was also expressed by the owner/builder.

The visit to that layout came in a timely manner where I was just starting to think about this latest Tupper Lake design. I'm still contemplating some alterations to the Tupper Lake design.

 

[Lynnb]

I have found through the years most plans that seem very interesting and have that complicated appeal often have many nice quality's but as was mentioned very difficult to include quality scenery. That plan has many bridges which is great but how do you do the scenery in a nice fashion. I think plans like this have some great ideas and only certain parts of the plan can be applied to a more simpler plan that gives opportunity to also have scenery, thus the theory, Less is More.

 

[beiland]

an Alternative Trackplan Suggestion

I am of a similar inkling as the CSX guy I just referenced. I like to run trains, and I like to see them passing one another in close quarters, either going in the same direction, or opposite directions. For that we need 'double tracks', or long sidings, or BOTH.

I'd like to see if I can get both, long sidings & dbl track,...which this layout does. I can well imagine one train leading the other at such a distance that it has gone around a loop of the helix area and is returning on one mainline while the following train is still on its way to the loop,....they pass in opposite directions on the 2 mainlines.

Want to complicate it a bit more, a third train could be waiting on one of those long sidings.

I can appreciate the criticism about the total number of tracks on a very narrow portion of the shelf, and the terracing of those tracks, and the lack of space for scenic elements. I offer in response,...
1) I believe I know how to eliminate one of those tracks on the narrow side of the layout.

2) I believe I know how to lessen the terracing effect there, and in fact hope to do so as I look forward to the 'passing effect' I spoke of before.

3) My shed will allow for a 11 foot wide layout verses the 10 foot wide original's plan, so I might add extra width to either shelf on each side.

4) There are many modular layouts, that we all see at train shows, that accomplish a lot of scenery in a relatively narrow space, (and most with double track mainlines). So I figure with at least an 18” shelf on that side, there are a number of 'structures/scenes' that might be added to original plan/idea.

Okay, I haven't had time to present the 'wider 11 foot view' as I spoke of above, but I did flip the original image over to an orientation that matches where I want to place my helix structure outside my 'train shed',..


Here is alternative track layout to that original plan presented by a gentleman on another forum,...and
1) including a second level that was not part of the original plan, and
2) a hint at a staging area under the peninsula





I'm having a little trouble interpreting the track plan detail in this helix area. Could someone help me?

 

[beiland]

....
I'm having a little trouble interpreting the track plan detail in this helix area. Could someone help me?

Here is what the fellow who made that new trackplan suggestion had to say about the helix area...

Yes, the helix is double tracked and all trains would travel up to the upper deck on each run. Since both yards are off of the main line then trains could be running continuously while you work one or both yards.

The yards are about 2-3” lower than the mainline as well. That would allow a curved turnout at “A” for a continuation of the helix down a couple turns (or more) to the staging below Tuper Lake. The inner track of the helix could also continue down to staging as well but would require a mock-up to see how that works in three dimensions as it would require another turn.

Some of the layout planning software allows three dimensions and would be neat to see someone draw this for you.

 

[beiland]

New Helix Trackage

I think I have worked out a way to do this layout with a single track helix, and concurrently allow for continuous running around both loops on the bottom deck without having to absolutely go to the upper deck,...thus an option. Since understanding the internals of a helix, where tracks are stacked on top of one another can be confusing some times, I present this helix structure broken down into its 3 major levels.

Access to the staging area below the peninsula is via a single track loop of perhaps 3% grade around the 30" radius. This track dives down below the main deck level by at least 4 inches at the edge of the layout in order to provide clearance under the 'flat loop' above it.

This is just a 'flat loop' of track that has a spur off of it leading to that peninsula that was part of the original plan. These 2 mainline(s) have a central 'siding' running between them. That siding is accessed here by a Y turnout combined with 2 dbl-radius turnouts.

Here the two mainlines come to join together in their own 'loop,& helix' combination. If the train arrives at bottom of the helix loop (B) it will go down 3/4 of the way around then exit off at (A) and back onto the 'other mainline'. But if it arrives on that other mainline that joins the helix at (A) it can either go 3/4 round and exit at (B),....or continue on up the helix to the second deck 18" above.

NOTE 1: I have not filled in the rest of the trackplan yet as it is still open to new design. But I did make this plan one (1) foot wider (added 6" to each deck on either side), as my shed is 1 foot wider than the original plan. I also tried to add the extra length to the original plan (shed length 15' inside dimension), but my drawing paper was not long enough.

NOTE 2: I made the helix structure/track a full 30" radius rather than the original plan that seem to hint at 24"r. And I put in a lager turntable (for big steam locos).

NOTE 3: That center peninsula might be made a little longer with my longer space? And I will take that train station out of there, and replace it with more freight/port structure(s). The second train station (destination) will be the Santa Fe one I mentioned before, and located in the upper deck peninsula.

 

[beiland]

The 2 mainline(s) on the left hand side have a central 'siding' running between them. That siding is accessed here by a Y turnout combined with 2 dbl-radius turnouts.

Here is a photo of what I had in mind for the unusual turnout grouping for that 'center siding line'

 

[Iron Horseman]

The 2 mainline(s) on the left hand side have a central 'siding' running between them. That siding is accessed here by a Y turnout combined with 2 dbl-radius turnouts.

Is that a #2 wye?

 

[tootnkumin]

Y is a crooked letter and Z is no better (had to say that). Also isn't there a song that goes Penisuli Peninsula Peninsuli Peninsulaaaaaaah!

 

[beiland]

Is that a #2 wye?

it is designated a 'small radius Y (SL-97) on my Peko turnout templates.

 

[beiland]

Turnouts in Helix 'structure'

There are a few folks on other forums that have assumed I have a number of turnouts in my 'helix structure', so I'd like to try and clear this up.



You do realize that I have ONLY 2 turnouts in the helix structure,....

1) the one that exits off the level loop of track at the bottom deck, ('second level' as I termed it in my sketches of the 3 helix 'regions'),...
and it leads to the peninsula industry. So no difference in grading there,..its all level.

2) the one at point (B) that is on a 2% grade.

There is no turnout at point (A),...that is strictly where the one mainline first starts its circular travel up to the top deck. The train can enter here and proceed around to point B, where it can continue its climb to the top, OR exit off onto the 'return mainline'.
And if the train enters at point (B) it has no choice but to go down to point (A) and exit back onto a 'return mainline'.

So ONLY one turnout on this climbing portion of the helix (and at the top there is no turnout needed for the train to go around the upper track, When the train desires to reverse its direction to go back down the helix, I figure it has to use the upper peninsula as a wye trackage.

I knew it would be difficult to understand it I presented just as one dwg, and that's why I included the '3 regions/levels' of the helix structure in 3 different dwgs.

http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?40610-Interesting-track-plan-Tupper-Lake-amp-Faust-Junction&p=460631#post460631

 

[beiland]

Helix Box Structure

BTW, I have now reconsidered having that helix structure partially in the main shed and partially outside,...that is just too difficult to construct. I'll move all the circular track to the outside box as I first proposed on the other subject thread.

 

[beiland]

Here are a few mods I have made to my dwg, including a few sample building sites.

But I have NOT yet moved that helix loop structure in total to the outside of the main train shed.

 

[beiland]

WOW, a version under construction

a reply from a gentleman who built (is building) this layout,...(submitted on another forum)

Railandsail...I started building this track plan during the first Bush administration and expect to "finish" it in two or three more presidential administrations.

Attached are some photos and comments, but I have to apologize in advance that I can not reply to any follow-up comments for at least 10 days. Dianna (my wife) and I just married off our daughter a day , and tomorrow Dianna and I are going on a 10 day get-away. I saw your post and thought I should say something,so.....

I started with a 2 car garage, now I have a one car garage.

At the bottom of this photo you can see my staging area, access to it is from the left (out of image) by adding an extra turnout from the "helix". I refer to the "helix" as a spiral vortex, but I'll go along with helix for now.

This is the view from the left of the helix, I removed the bridge from the track plan, thus straightening out the track and added the extra turnout to the staging area.

Looking down the track from the other side of previous photo

These two trains are going intrail of each other, that is they are traveling the same direction about 10-15 feet apart. To this day I can not tell at a glance if a train is northbound or southbound. The picture also shows the vertical scenery which someone else pointed out earlier.....Its getting late, I'm beat. I'll sign off, but to let you know, I'm very happy with the design (I did make a few changes) and plan on continuing to work on it. I'll be back in 10 days.

Best Regards
Oakland Dan

 

[beiland]

Interesting New Idea

from another forum


Long Trains

If my goal was to be able to run several long trains, to watch them pass each other and not to emphasize switching or industry work, here's what I would do.

The layout would be two laps of double track around the room , one on each level. At the bump out one end on each level would go into a balloon loop, and the other end would go into a double track helix. On the top level on two sides I would put a double ended yard with 2-6 train length tracks. Since its high on the upper level, I could hide it behind a very low backdrop (4-6 in high) , row of buildings or row of trees.


Optionally could put a connection track on the one or both mains at the bump out to create a continuous run on each level. Optionally I could put the peninsula in and use it for a little switching or an engine terminal to display or swap out engines.

I would shoot for 4 tracks in the staging yard. I would put a passenger train, a bulk train and a couple freights in the staging yards, all facing the same way, then I could let some or all of the trains out of the staging yard to run. Since its a glorified dogbone, once the trains are speed matched, they can run forever around the loop. Since its a dogbone, every train will appear to operate in both directions, so I could constantly have the trains passing each other.

If I put in the optional connection by the bump out, I could run trains on the upper level on that loop, and leave the lift out open on the lower level for visitors to enter leave without stopping all the trains.

With the optional engine facility, I could stop one train and swap out engines and with a couple crossovers, route other trains around it.

With only a double track main around the room, the benchwork can be as wide or as narrow as I liked. It will leave a lot of room for scenery or buildings. It I wanted to add a few industries along the main, I could have some switching and still run a train around the larger loop, once again using a few crossovers.

The balloon loops would go above (top) and below (bottom) the helix. Nothing would stop you from going down another 2 or 3 turns and putting a larger storage staging level below the bottom deck.

Another option would be to put a generic stub out onto the peninsula. You could then build very detailed "dioramas" that would have a standard footprint and could sit on the peninsula and be "plugged" into the stub track, then stored on shelves below the peninsula or layout. Want a big lumber mill? Do it. Want a town scene? Do it, then swap out the lumber mill. Want a coal mine? Build it it then swap out for the city. Feeling like the lumber mill today? Put the lumber mill back.

 

[beiland]

I've been thinking on and off over the weekend about your submission Dave, and there is a lot to like about your & Rob's ideas.

Two things come to mind,...
1) Can I really get a lot of interesting scenery (industries) in those relatively narrow shelfs around the majority of the room?

2) Could I get that turntable, steam facility, roundhouse, and maybe abbreviated yard that the original plan & I show, into your plan?

I think I can by eliminating that 'dip' in your dble tracks that enter the helix in the center of that end of the shed. I am NOT married to the idea that the outside box that contains the helix be a 'square shape' . In other words how about if those dbl tracks 'cut-the-corner' to enter the helix rather than dip down, then up, to get to the helix. The helix 'box' would have a bit of an angled side to it.

And remember I want to move the entire 'circle track' of the helix out of the shed to the external helix structure.

As I've indicated Dave I like some of your ideas. So here is my first modification to your suggestions. I have basically taken your top level and bottom level and reversed their loop ends somewhat.

On the bottom level I have the 'balloon loop' ,as you termed it, attached to the tracks on the left hand side of the layout, and the 'double trackage to the helix' attached to the tracks on the right hand side. Naturally this 'reversal' would also take place on the upper level where the dble tracks from the helix would enter on the left side and do their 'balloon loop from the right hand tracks. For brevity I only included a sketch for the lower level,...

I've also moved those 'balloon loops / the double track helix' totally outside the main shed walls, and anticipate its outer radius to be 32" and inner radius 29"

Nothing wrong with this,..correct?

 

[beiland]

Undersatanding Wye Style Turnarounds

I've been concentrating on the lower level of this dbl-deck design I want to build, and somewhat ignoring the upper level so far. At present I have two approaches to getting to the upper level, ....1) the single track helix I came up with, and 2) the double track helix that Neil and Dave have suggested.

Dbl track configuration
I can see where this arrangement readily allows for the train to go forward up the helix, and forward down the helix.

Single track configuration
With my single track arrangement the train arrives at the upper level of track that loops around the perimeter of the shed, but does not allow for it to change direction for heading back down the helix. I had thoughts that some sort of 'wye track arrangement' could be utilized to solve this problem?,...and I had thoughts that the wye could be a part of a center peninsula on this upper level right over that peninsula shape on the lower level??

But I have a couple of questions, as I don't fully understand all the mannerisms of wye trackage. Do any real life wyes turn whole trains around,...or just the locos? If they only turn the locos around that means the cars that follow are in the reverse order,...passenger trains as well??

 

[Iron Horseman]

But I have a couple of questions, as I don't fully understand all the mannerisms of wye trackage. Do any real life wyes turn whole trains around,...or just the locos? If they only turn the locos around that means the cars that follow are in the reverse order,...passenger trains as well??

Yes, in real life there are wye configurations used to turn whole passenger trains at a time. In the glory days there were actually two right here at the Denver Union Station. One on the Burlington and another for the Union Pacific. That way trains coming to the station from the north or east could then leave eastbound or northbound. The station being on the third (south) leg of the wye. The California Zephyr and City of St. Louis trains used them twice daily. On second thought, the Amtrak California Zephyr still uses the one today.

St. Louis Union Station was nothing but an enormous triple track wye.

I am certain there are dozens if not hundreds of examples throughout the US.

 

[Greg@mnrr]

Dan...interesting layout with a lot of trackage in a well defined space. Looks like a fun railroad to operate. Keep us posted on your progress.

In the former C&NW yard (now UP) in Butler, Wisconsin, there's wye turn around track which also doubles as a main to branch line, lead north from the yard. Try a google search.

Thanks.

Greg

 

[beiland]

Manual intervention, & 'optional continuous connections'

The design of the "double track" helix is so you can keep multiple trains running. If you use a single track portion, especially in the helix or have to wye a train, on a small layout like this, everything else has to stop. That's because the runs are so short the other train will reach a spot where it will conflict with the other train before the other train can make it thru the helix or turn.

The real choice is, do you want to be able to run multiple trains at once, hands free, where you can just sit back and watch or do you want to run one train at a time and have to stop things to control a train turning or navigating a looooooooooong single track portion (about 1/3 the run). There is no right answer, its your preference. But it is a choice. If you go with the single track version you will give up watching multiple trains run without having to manually intervene. You can add some form of automated control to handle switches in the single track portion, but any of the other trains will most likely have to stop while the other train turns or navigates the single track.

The basic idea of my design is to support your desire to see trains passing each other and watching trains run. If you get rid of that aspect you greatly reduce the ability to meet that goal and the railroad will require a great deal more manual intervention.

And yes railroad do use wyes to turn trains, primarily passenger trains, but its a very long, slow process, that is usually done at a terminal. There is really no need to turn a freight train on a wye. It is quicker, cheaper and requires less railroad to just turn the engines and runaround the train.

I responded,
I get your point Dave, and yes I would like to avoid that need to constantly intervene. So I will include the double helix.

I had been trying to avoid having the trains climbing/descending the helix so often, So I believe what I need to do is give more considerations as to how to provide that "optional continuous connection" (as you labeled it on your dwg) for both the upper deck and the lower deck.