Improving Our Steam Engines Performance


Now that we've pretty much beat the causes of steam locomotives traction issues to death, let's move back to ways of improving their traction. Obviously, traction tires, bull frog snot and adding weight can make improvements, but adding weight is not always possible on some models. Traction tires are difficult to find in the correct size and can be expensive. Bullfrog snot seems to work pretty well on wheels designed for traction tires but I have not had success applying to other wheels.
We discussed the possibility of a pusher locomotive disguised as a water tender which I developed. First, I started out with a proto 2000 b unit, put a non sound decoder in it and built a new shell. I thought it was the solution but my results have been less than stellar. It is speed matched pretty closely with my Rivarossi Challenger but when it is pushing, it tends to derail the tender. Ok, add weight to the tender right? But too much weight in the tender, especially the front, pushes down on the drawbar and takes weight off the front wheelset of the trailing truck of the locomotive and causes that to derail. When I add weight, it is no more than a 1/2 Oz at a time but the centipede tender is not very forgiving. At this time, I have not found the right variables to make the results bulletproof. This is still a work in progress.
I am next going to try slowing the pusher slightly so the Challenger is actually trying to pull it but it will assist when the Challenger starts to lose traction when climbing.
I do want to add that the Rivarossi versions of both the Big Boy and Challenger had no electrical pickups and were very light. I have added weight along with the decoder, speakers, electrical wipers and keep alive as room was not available in the boiler without removing a huge amount of much needed weight.
 
I applaud these rather interesting postings you fellows are adding to this subject.

Please keep it up, and I will rejoin the discussions once I get my latest computer problems resolved.
 
Espeefan said:
As I mentioned, The Coach Yard does these: https://www.walthers.com/power-truc...e-suitable-for-cars-w-8-6-quot-to-9-wheelbase
I have seen them in four and six axle configurations. They are expensive but work very well. Walthers doesn't carry them, but The Original Whistle Stop in Pasadena would likely have them. I talk to Fred Hill, who owns both businesses regularly and he has always been a great help.
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I had missed this before. Do you feel these haver better performance than converting a diesel locomotive? Please elaborate.
 
I don't have any myself, but a few of our club members have them in all brass consists. One member has a Santa Fe passenger train he pulls with a Blue Goose Hudson with one of these in a baggage car. It works very well for him. It depends on a couple of things: Are they still available? I've sent a note out to The Original Whistle Stop to find out. The Coach yard is a brass importer and they specialize in passenger trains. They have come up with several things for those of use who have chosen to suffer through accurate passenger train modeling. The problem is that products come and go, come and go, and follow demand. Sometimes he has them, sometimes not. You would put one or two into a baggage car with an appropriate amount of weight, and presto, you've got a disguised helper. They are DCC compatible, and their advantage is that you don't have to worry about wheelbase, or truck sideframes, etc. A fellow with a well equipped shop might be able to cobble one up. the switcher chassis is a good idea too, where it fits, and if you can get the side frame issue solved. I wouldn't want switcher trucks under my aux tender or express box car, but I'm fussy! I've also seen modelers fill boilers full of lead and move the motor to the tender, and I've seen gearing ripped out of steamers and the tenders filled with weight and their trucks powered. There is also an old story about John Allen at a show where a club had a pair od Big Boy's double heading a train which was the hit of the show. He had a 2-8-2 he weighted, balanced, and roughed the driver tires. He talked these guys into a pulling contest, and the Mike ended up dragging the two big boys down the track kicking and screaming. I think this was in an old RMC, a series of articles about him after he passed away. But I digress! The moral of the story was that articulated locos in model form have crappy suspensions and terrible weight transfer. After going through several of my own brass models I find I have to agree. Anyhow back to your question. They are out there and they work. If I didn't have so many projects in the stack I might try and make my own if there were no commercial units available. A powered passenger car is a slick item!
 
I guess I don't see the problem here. We generally have unprototypically steep grades, sometimes (as do I) with sharp curves at both ends (as do I). As I see it, if you have DCC, you can consist a pair of steam locos (or diesels, if it comes to that), and do what the prototypes do...double-head or double the train up the hill.

Nonetheless, this is an interesting thread.
 
Not really a problem, just a different solution. Back in the day you didn't see Big Boys and Challengers double heading. Recently they use a diesel pusher to save their mechanisms, but I am modeling up to the mid 50's. Granted the articulateds were not used on 3.5% grades. I solved the problem on the Big Boy for now with 2 motors and traction tires but the Challenger seems to be a little worse on traction. It's a little newer model with a more efficient drive system but would be way more difficult to equip with 2 motors.
I have some newer better built models but these old Rivarossi's are special to me as these were what my dad and I modeled together when I was a kid (before girls and cars).
 
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Espeefan said:
I don't have any myself, but a few of our club members have them in all brass consists. One member has a Santa Fe passenger train he pulls with a Blue Goose Hudson with one of these in a baggage car. It works very well for him. It depends on a couple of things: Are they still available? I've sent a note out to The Original Whistle Stop to find out. The Coach yard is a brass importer and they specialize in passenger trains. They have come up with several things for those of use who have chosen to suffer through accurate passenger train modeling. The problem is that products come and go, come and go, and follow demand. Sometimes he has them, sometimes not. You would put one or two into a baggage car with an appropriate amount of weight, and presto, you've got a disguised helper. They are DCC compatible, and their advantage is that you don't have to worry about wheelbase, or truck sideframes, etc. A fellow with a well equipped shop might be able to cobble one up. the switcher chassis is a good idea too, where it fits, and if you can get the side frame issue solved. I wouldn't want switcher trucks under my aux tender or express box car, but I'm fussy! I've also seen modelers fill boilers full of lead and move the motor to the tender, and I've seen gearing ripped out of steamers and the tenders filled with weight and their trucks powered. There is also an old story about John Allen at a show where a club had a pair od Big Boy's double heading a train which was the hit of the show. He had a 2-8-2 he weighted, balanced, and roughed the driver tires. He talked these guys into a pulling contest, and the Mike ended up dragging the two big boys down the track kicking and screaming. I think this was in an old RMC, a series of articles about him after he passed away. But I digress! The moral of the story was that articulated locos in model form have crappy suspensions and terrible weight transfer. After going through several of my own brass models I find I have to agree. Anyhow back to your question. They are out there and they work. If I didn't have so many projects in the stack I might try and make my own if there were no commercial units available. A powered passenger car is a slick item!
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Thank you for sharing this , Alan. It does sound promising and I enjoyed your story also.
 
We all know we can double or even triple up our diesels to get the pulling power we want. Its the steam engines we need to help, so we are forced to dbl-head them. So lets concentrate on them.

I really think the pusher engine is the best solution. This pusher engine could be of several different forms:
1) Disguised Fast Freight Car...almost universally usable (edit...EXPRESS REEFER)
2) Disguised aux water tender ...very usable
3) Disguised baggage car....not usable on a lot of our freight trains

The least expensive of these would to be able to make use of a an existing powered chassis that could be put under some existing body style,...not worrying about the truck-wheel sizes.

The next step might be finding truck side frames that could more prototypical disguise the oversize wheels.

The next step might be sourcing those Japanese ones I documented in another subject tread that utilized freight car size wheels.,...then adapting them into the chassis-frame of our chosen pusher car.

Again the express freight car (Express Reefer) or aux water tender car are I think the best candidates.

@Bigboy57 , I think your UP water tender had too many wheels, causing problems similar to 6 or 8 axle engines vs 4 axle ones.





I think we have a lot to learn from those Roco steam engines with their powered tenders,....both as pushers for our all-ready existing steam engines,...and in particular for future steam products,...

EDITED I went back to this page of the discussions and had to modify some wording and re-look at the Roco powered tender ideas
modelrailroadforums.com

Improving Our Steam Engines Performance

Standard production plastic inserts. Considering the state of the traction tyres I doubt the previous owner has upgraded the drive wheels to something like Romford or Alan Gibson set's.
modelrailroadforums.com modelrailroadforums.com
 
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Interesting conversation prompted me to actually test one of my steamers. This is an old Bowser/Knapp 4-8-2 which i found at a nearby antique shop. I got it without a tender and on another show found this Bachmann Vanderbilt tender in pieces. Fixed up the tender and did some basic rewiring to make it run with locomotive. My grade is not only sharp, but also on a curve and it's got to be well over 3%. It starts out gentle on the bottom and by the time it comes out of the tunnel, it's at its sharpest. I did not do any mods to the 4-8-2, it's as it came from factory and very heavy. I could add i little more weight to it, particulary under the cab where there is unprototypically a lot of open space. Considering it started with 21 cars, it did wery well. Another improvement which can be done is partial, or full spring suspention. I already came out with an idea how to do it on those full cast mainframes and someday might tackle the project. On the second run i might have been going a little too fast through the throat of the station and lost four cars including the caboose. Just like on real railroad i have to controll that throtle on steamers, especially as some of the train is already going down hill, with the cars in the rear still at the sharpest part of the incline. Why do i do that to myself🤣, that was supposed to be a simple layout:
 
I think we need to get real sanders on our steam locomotives! Otherwise, double-heading or doubling the hill appears to be the only solution.
 
Espeefan said:
Exactly my point! While generally model diesels will pull better than model steamers, mostly because of all geared axles and smaller wheel diameters, when compared to the real thing, they aren't all that far off. I very much doubt the real GP 9 would pull 20+ cars yup a 3.7% grade (if you could find one). Right now, the steepest grade we have is Raton Pass NM at 3.3%. I've never researched the operations on that grade but have seen plenty of pics with double headed steamers. I am somewhat familiar with operations on Saluda Grade, which was 4.7%, site of numerous accidents, and a real bear to get trains over. "Tripling the hill" was very common. :) If you just want to reduce this to a pulling contest, model diesels as a rule will pull better. If you compare steam models to what the prototypes were actually capable of, I think our model steamers do quite well, and my favoring prototype operations does influence my perceptions. We make many compromises in the hobby. Sharper radii, steeper grades, deeper flange depths, articulated frames and huge amounts of side slop in mechanisms, and more. Sometimes you have to pick what you want the model to do. Do you want a good puller, or do you need to get around sharp curves? Modifications to get a model to do one of those may impact its ability to do the other.
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On Saluda, 3 SD60s would have to triple a 60 car train.
 
Since my post yesterday I slowed my pusher down by 1% and the challenger is slightly pulling the pusher except up the steep incline then the pusher is pushing to compensate the challenger’s loss of traction. The results were much improved with no derailments. I also added weight to the front of the F-B pusher as it has all of its weight is toward the rear. Next, I did my speed matching with the pusher in reverse.

The wheel sizes and side frames are another issue but I may paint them black and forget about that. I am waiting on railing parts to finish the shell.

I like to run my steamers relatively slow which seems more prototypical to me. With most of them, depending on gearing, I run cv5 around 100 and cv6 about 50 and then on the mainline I usually run on speed step 25.
 
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I wonder if a NWSL Stanton drive could be installed as one or both tender trucks? Some prototype steam locomotives had booster units either in the four-wheel trailing trucks, or in the lead or rear trucks under the tender? Don't know if it would work due to the difference in wheel diameters between the Stanton truck (42" is the largest available), and you couldn't cut it off the way the prototype could, but it's a thought...
 
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