Help identifying these locomotives


malibu43

Active Member
Hi all,

I have these two postcards of my home town and am trying to figure out what locomotive types might be pictured.

The back of the first one reads: "Santa Margarita, CA early 1900. Center of twon looking towards the cattle corrals at Encina and El Camino Real."
The back of the second reads: "Southern Pacific Railroad arrived from Templeton on April 20, 1889. It would be 5 more years before it was completed to San Luis Obispo."

Q9NlJDi.png


The top one looks like it could be a 2-6-0 or a 2-8-0. I'm not sure if whether or not that train was terminating in Santa Margarita or continuing into San Luis Obispo (over Cuesta Grade) would change which type it could be.

For the bottom one, the perspective makes it a little tougher. I can't tell if it's the same 2-6-0 or 2-8-0 type with Vandy tenders, or possibly a 4-6-2 Pacific similar to the restored SP 2472.

I've always thought it would be fun to have one (or both) of the pictured locomotives for my HO collection. I already have an SP 2-6-0...
 
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I am definitely not an SP person, but... I notice a couple of distinguishing characteristics that should help.

First is the high headlamp. I don't think any SP Pacifics had a high headlight. I've seen high headlamps on SP 4-8-0, 4-6-0, really early 2-8-0, 4-4-2, and 2-6-0 locos.
Second is the bell between the sand and steam domes.

As you already noted the vandy tender. The combination of those three things should greatly limit the types the 2nd one can be.
The number xx-19 on the locomotive in the second photo should be a big clue also. One of the 4-8-0s had high headlamp, vandy tender, bell between domes, and was loco number 2919.

I can't tell if the 1st loco has a vandy tender or not.

Given the dates it should be pretty easy to prune down the list even further. I don't think the 4-4-2 and 4-6-2 types existed yet given the times of the photos.
 
Early SP engines had high mounted head lights. Then the light was moved down to center of the smoke box in the 1920's with a barrel style light. Starting in the 1930's a pyle type lower center mount was used until the end of steam on un-streamlined locomotives. I think Vanderbilt tenders started to be used after 1905 when California mandated oil burning for steam engines on Class 1 railroads instead of coal or wood. The SP coast line was only completed for through passenger service from San Francisco to Los Angeles in 1901. No other standard gauge railroad serviced this area. There is no evidence of automobiles or trucks. Therefore, I would guess both photos would have been taken around 1905-10.

In the first picture the engine has a rectangular tender with an oil bunker mounted where the coal originally would have been stored. It is probably in local or way freight service and might originally have been a wood burner.

In the second picture it appears a helper has been attached for the climb over Cuesta pass to San Luis Obispo. I would say that it too has a Vanderbilt tender from the small part visible. Helpers for passenger trains were normally attached at Santa Margarita as it was a scheduled stop. Freight trains later had their helpers attached at a siding closer to the start of the grade. The number 19 in the train indicator number board is the passenger timetable train number. The passenger train is eastbound on the SP going towards LA. (It may be geographically southbound or SSE, but on SP employee timetables all trains toward San Francisco were westbound and away from San Francisco eastbound.)

Most SP Coast line steam up to the Pacifics that I am familiar with had the bell between the steam dome and the sand dome.

The railroad museum at San Luis Obispo has a good online history pdf available on the SP Coast line in that area.
 
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Autocoach, That is some very good detective work! When I looked at the 2nd photo I never even saw that there was a locomotive tender in front of the #19. Also, identifying where the bell is between the sand and steam domes and that the headlights had been high on the boiler on early Espee locos should be helpful to those who know these facts! It's amazing to me how folks who know some esoteric information, get to use it ever once in a great while. Makes the studying of a specific line worth the effort, don't it?

Also, you CAN see the glint of sheet metal that would cover an oil tender in the first photo. I had seen there was a "lightness" in this area when I first looked at this photo; but, assumed it was the roof of a building on the other side of the tender. However, I think your right, it is sheet metal covering the bunker of an oil tender. That California mandated oil burning steam locomotives on passenger trains in the state, on Class 1 railroads is testament to that states being ever on protection of the environment, even in 1905.

However, I don't believe that the Vanderbilt Tender was only used on oil burning locomotives.
 
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Autocoach, That is some very good detective work! When I looked at the 2nd photo I never even saw that there was a locomotive tender in front of the #19. Also, identifying where the bell is between the sand and steam domes and that the headlights had been high on the boiler on early Espee locos should be helpful to those who know these facts! It's amazing to me how folks who know some esoteric information, get to use it ever once in a great while. Makes the studying of a specific line worth the effort, don't it?

Also, you CAN see the glint of sheet metal that would cover an oil tender in the first photo. I had seen there was a "lightness" in this area when I first looked at this photo; but, assumed it was the roof of a building on the other side of the tender. However, I think your right, it is sheet metal covering the bunker of an oil tender. That California mandated oil burning steam locomotives on passenger trains in the state, on Class 1 railroads is testament to that states being ever on protection of the environment, even in 1905.

However, I don't believe that the Vanderbilt Tender was only used on oil burning locomotives.

The 1905 legislation from a corrupt legislature "owned" by the Southern Pacific banning coal and wood burning was not out of any farsighted benign environmental consideration. Oil was being found and produced in great quantities in early 20th century southern and central California and the Southern Pacific owned a lot of the oil land. It also had interlocking corporate directorships with Standard Oil and other producers. They also wanted the oil traffic in the pre-pipeline era. And when pipelines were built they wanted them on railroad land to gain the revenue. Plus there was geologically limited coal available in California. There were smaller mines east of San Francisco around Mt. Diablo but they produced inferior steam coal. Oil had become cheap gold in California by 1905. Oil did limit lineside spark caused fires. SP benefited from the reduced cost of fighting those fires and the reduced legal costs of lawsuits from adjoining property owners.

In this period the E. H. Harriman owned SP (along with UP, IC and other roads in what was an illegal monopoly) which was known as the hated "Octopus" in California for its strangulation of small business and farmers with extortionate freight rates. The revolt by the citizens of California against the SP and its monopolistic corruption of government in the early 20th century was what turned California into a progressive state with initiative, referendum and recall to balance the power of mega corporations of the time.
 
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Wow, was I wrong! However, I do live more than 1/2 the way across the country from California. So, forgive me for not knowing California's sordid history.
 
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The second photo is the UP version of the Harriman Lines Common Standard Vanderbilt tender. It is the coal version. The SP version has a smaller bunker area built for oil.


I only have the Bachmann version which appears to be accurate to show as a sample.

vb tender for c-13 or m-6.jpg

From sordid California.....
 
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Thank you all for the replies and discussion! This is all some very interesting stuff!!!

I agree, at this point, it seems a 2-8-0 is the most likely loco (or locos) in the second shot. Both in terms of appearance and scenario. I would guess that a pair of 2-8-0's would be much more likely to be pulling a train over Cuesta Grade than 2-6-0 or 4-6-0.

Please continue the discussion!
 



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