Flange-ways in our Turnouts


How is it that the Standards are felt to be mystifying? As stated in the first Video "Demystifying the NMRA Standards" That has not been my experience and to the contrary, the Standards clarify; or, explain what it is I need; or, want to understand! Possibly not the video producers intentions; but, by stating "Demystifying the NMRA Standards", it appears they are saying they are the only person smart enough to clarify these confusing standards.

I know, I've read far more into what is intended. However, I enjoy looking at how things get worded. "Turnouts and the NMRA Standards" would be a better choice of verbiage!
 
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Bending/Squeezing Peco Guard Rails

This is a 'new solution' I've not heard of before,...

Years ago when I built my Buffalo Line I used Peco code 100 curved turnouts in a few of my staging yards for the ladder. Discovered that when backing long trains into the tracks that cars would derail at the frogs. So I measured the gap between the guardrail discovered that it was a bit too wide so I then got a small length of styrene about .010 less than that measurement. Been so long ago I do not remember the sizes. Anyway I would put the piece of styrene in the gap then using a pair of square nose line mans pliers gently squeeze between the rail and guardrail as the plastic they use is fairly soft . When the styrene spacers is tight I stop and remove the piece and the guardrail is now closer to the rail with no white styrene shim to deal with. You don't have to move the entire guard rail just the section directly across from the point of frog. Have never broken a Peco doing this and 29 years later they are still in service with no derailments. Nice thing is this can be done easily when the turnout is in place and ballasted ! ----------- Ken



Subsequently after I mentioned some reservations about performing this 'operation' on some older Peco turnouts ,..
I have a bunch of Evergreen styrene . So I found out what fit tightly in a non modified Peco . Then subtracted .010 from that and that's what I used as a spacer when I bend the guardrail. The line mans pliers I use have a fairly wide square jaw end . You only need to move the guardrail about .010 and only the portion leading up to the point of frog and the point. I've done Peco's that have been in place for over ten years and have yet to have a failure. --- Ken


Has anyone else had any experiences with this??
 
Over the past few days I've been looking at this 'bending the guard rail' idea, and thus far I am not that enamored with the idea. Certainly it would save a lot of time, but I've run into a few problems.


Spacer Piece:
First off I though it would be wise to find a good solid piece (metal) to place between the track and the guard rail such that I didn't over-bend the guard rail. I found in my closest approximation that the stock gap is about .050". I happen to have a nice piece of tough steel plate that measures about .030" thick. Using this plate thickness would leave me with a .030" gap which II felt was just right considering that I had done previous experiment with .010" and .020" shims into that .050" gap,....equals .040" or .030" gap on finished turnout.


I had a number of different sets of pliers, including several sets of line-man pliers, and I had an older screwed up turnout to experiment on. I started off squeezing the guard rail with one face of the pliers and the metal rail itself with the other. First off I needed to lightly round off the very sharp edges of one squeezing face of the pliers as they would dig into the relatively soft plastic of the guide rail. Sgueezing directly against the metal rail did NOT appear to be any problem with dislodging the rail, nor marring it up. But even with the smooth face (no 'teeth' in that direct gripping area of my pliers), I still marred up the plastic guard rail (admittedly it was the outer surface of my flangeway), but is still was a little unsightly.


I subsequently discovered that I was NOT getting my flangeway slot down to the dimension of my spacer piece (.030"), but rather to only about .040". What might be the problem? I thought perhaps like a lot of bending exercises it need to be over-bent slightly to end up with my desired slot dimension. I subsequently inserted a slightly thinner piece of metal and achieved that goal,...but it was not a nice smooth looking guard rail any longer, and it had actually peaked up in a few spots that would need filing down.


I was (am) getting discouraged with this ideal and went back looking at the metal shim idea. While this looks really slick, it not as easy as it looks to get a good firm (non-glued) fit.
..and the metal shim is not readily 'trimmable' like the plastic shims.


I believe I may return to some plastic shim experiments,...wish Evergreen made black plastic strips.
 
New Experiments with Plastic Shims


I'm going to run some new experiments with the plastic shims. To me they seem to offer the longest, smoothest slot transition.
DSCF3794.jpg



I want to reaffirm the minimum thicknesses that are acceptable, best steps in applying them, and which types of turnouts are to be considered ???


I'm trying to set up the most challenging, while simple track plan into which to place each of the different turnouts under question. Here is what I've come up with,...


DSCF5504.JPG






DSCF5503.JPG



The locos will come down a relatively straight section that then turns left thru a 24" radius section of track. It then must immediately enter the turnout in question (short Y shown here) and go off in either of 2 directions,...diverge off onto the right hand track/siding, or enter the curved track to the left which is a challenging 22" radius curve.


This reversal of curves should put the loco to the challenge of negotiating the turnout while challenging the turnout to steer the loco thru without picking-the-frog, and/or derailing in some other manner.


DSCF5505.JPG

(I'm already surprised at a few initial trials without any shims)


I started out with the short 'Y' turnout type as I have utilized quite a few on my layout plan,...and I figured its relatively tight curves might make it a challenge, particularly where I have several in a row right after one another.


(I also have a Roco brand Y in there to test, as I have a few of those on my plan)
 
I was (am) getting discouraged with this ideal and went back looking at the metal shim idea. While this looks really slick, it not as easy as it looks to get a good firm (non-glued) fit.
..and the metal shim is not readily 'trimmable' like the plastic shims.

You know, it's funny. I have an old peco turnout that has been giving me some trouble lately, and just at the same time as I was getting ready to fight that battle, this post comes along. And wouldn't you know it? This solved my problem. 😁😁😁
 
'Y' turnouts discovery

I also have a Roco and a Atlas Y type turnouts. In general I have found that the flange slot of their guard rails are about .040" wide, while the Peco's are about .050". And both of the others have slightly longer guard rails.

Preliminary report,....all my test steamers had no problems with the Roco or Atlas Y's,...without shimming.
 
@KB02,
Was there a specific logo or car that was giving you the problem?
What size was that old Peco?

How did you fix it,...what sort of shim did you use?
It was two specific locos, and a few hopper cars, that were giving me trouble - a couple of Athern Bluebox GP38-2's.
I used a thin sheet of brass stock that I happened to have lying around to make the shim. Not sure what the exact size is, but it was just think enough to solve the problem.
 
So far I have experimented with shims varying between .010", .015", and as large as .020" thick,...metal and plastic.

In general I have found that the thin ones work just fine,.....010" seems to be fine.
 
While researching this subject recently, of 'excessive size flangeways' in commercially available turnouts, I was finding lots of really interesting discussions scattered about the internet and multiple railroad forums. I was running out of bookmarks to try and recall all of them. That prompted me to start this subject thread to try and bring a lot of those discussions, links and photo references into one central subject thread that I could revert back to when I failed to remember some particular posting on specific 'derailment problems' of our turnouts.

Naturally it is not just problems with the turnouts nor the wheels themselves individually. Its a 'system' of the two.

So I thought this posting was rather interesting to start the subject thread out,...
[url]http://www.ostpubs.com/systems-thinking/[/URL]



That's some interesting history I was unaware of, or had forgotten :cool:


I've come back to this subject of flangeways in our turnouts as I feel the need to make some modifications to several turnouts on my new layout,.... (googling brought me back to my own subject thread).

I just read thru the first page of discussions, and was pleasantly surprised at some of the postings, including these 'history ones'. After breakfast I will get onto reading the remainder, and perhaps relearn some things I had forgotten...ha..ha
 
I only just now stumbled across this thread (it may already have been mentioned): When it comes to plastic shims, sheet, dimensional lumber, etc.,
Evergreen does offer a limited range of items in black, and not white styrene plastic.
 
I am aware that they offer some black materials (likely styrene), but that not my major concern.

***********************************************
Modifying our flangeways in Peco Turnouts
to SHIM or BEND ?

Sorry to be bringing this subject up again, but yesterday I was running some experiments on a couple of turnouts I wanted to 'improve'.

In the previous discussions I had sort of settled on adding shims to the guard rails of the Pecos rather than bending those guard rails. When I went looking at the best adhesives to utilize for installing these shims, I ran into a problem. Almost NOTHING likes to stick to plastic utilized in these Pecos ! I tried a number of adhesives to include a generic superglue from Harbor Freight, Gorilla glue, MEK, etc. A few of them acted like they wanted to adhere, but you could tell they were not truly secure for the long run. (I really thought/hoped that MEK was going to be the answer).

I can only surmise at this point that the plastic used to make these Pecos is some sort plastic similar to that used by the glue makers to contain the glues they are selling,....nothing REALLY sticks to them?? Does ANYONE know what specific plastic they use??

That being the case I'm back to reconsidering the 'bending' of those guard rails.

......various pieces of potential shim materials tying to adhere to an old Peco turout,..
DSCF7784.jpg
 
To be clear, my only interest in this conversation is because of the jostling of the locomotives and cars on my layout as they pass through some of the turn-out frogs on my layout. I am not having derailment problems with these turn-outs. The action of the cars and locos is similar to a car hitting a pothole. This is happening because the wheels fall off of the rail head into the bottom of the flange-way, generally .020 below where the flange of the wheel normally rides. On full scale railroads the tread of the wheel never leaves a railhead so falling into the flange-way never occurs. However, because of the build up of tolerances and how turn-out frogs are made for model railroad track, the flange-way (at least for Atlas turn-outs) is much larger than it needs to be. Adding a .020 thick shim to the base of the flange-ways on my Atlas Custom line turn-outs will cure this problem. I know this because I have experimented with doing so. I use plastic shims and there is no worries about electrical shorting. However electrical continuity is lost for the very short time the driver or diesel drive wheels are in the bottom of the flange-way.

So, for me this issue is only about an unrealistic lurch my cars and locos make when crossing some of my Atlas Custom Line Turn-out frogs.

Atlas Code 100 track and turn-outs may not be the best products on the market. However, they can be made much better with some extra work. At the time most of my track was laid, Atlas was still in the mainstream, Code 83 was coming on; but, much more expensive!

Yesterday I decided to experiment with the depth of my Peco flangeways,...


I had some evergreen strips .020 x .060, so I decided to glue a piece in the frog area reducing the wheel drop by .020"
DSCF7785.jpg DSCF7786.jpg

It actually worked out quite well. It even still allows a few of my bigger flanged wheels thru with no problems. And it was easy to install,...just add superglue to the tip pf the strip, slide it into place, then cut off the end.
 
As I posted on another thread, I have 110+ Atlas turnouts on my layout all code 100. The main issue is the wheels dropping slightly but not derailing at the frog. To fix this, I insert a "V" shaped piece of .015" or .020" piece of styrene into the recess. The flange then rides on the insert instead of dropping. As I pointed out, the dropping doesn't cause issues but looks un-prototypical. This only affects #6 or larger turnouts.

Willie
I had one turnout where the drop would occur and when I read Willie's solution I tried it. The drop never caused a derailment but the sound was really annoying, especially since it doesn't happen anywhere else on my layout. Since I implemented Willie's solution, wheels just roll through smoothly, no more drop. Glenn
 
I am aware that they offer some black materials (likely styrene), but that not my major concern.

***********************************************
Modifying our flangeways in Peco Turnouts
to SHIM or BEND ?

Sorry to be bringing this subject up again, but yesterday I was running some experiments on a couple of turnouts I wanted to 'improve'.

In the previous discussions I had sort of settled on adding shims to the guard rails of the Pecos rather than bending those guard rails. When I went looking at the best adhesives to utilize for installing these shims, I ran into a problem. Almost NOTHING likes to stick to plastic utilized in these Pecos ! I tried a number of adhesives to include a generic superglue from Harbor Freight, Gorilla glue, MEK, etc. A few of them acted like they wanted to adhere, but you could tell they were not truly secure for the long run. (I really thought/hoped that MEK was going to be the answer).

I can only surmise at this point that the plastic used to make these Pecos is some sort plastic similar to that used by the glue makers to contain the glues they are selling,....nothing REALLY sticks to them?? Does ANYONE know what specific plastic they use??

That being the case I'm back to reconsidering the 'bending' of those guard rails.

......various pieces of potential shim materials tying to adhere to an old Peco turout,.
beiland,

Hopefully, when you determine the type of plastic, used by Peco, these links will give you the type of adhesive to use.

<https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...-Glue-Selector-table.pdf?13487108006380204801>

<https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0131/9341/2666/files/GlueChart-2018.pdf?13487108006380204801>

These links go to a website by Deluxe Materials. I have no affiliation, with them, other than I stumbled upon the website when I was looking for some information. It appears to me that if you have an adhesive need, they have a solution. Glenn
 
I have been told by Peco that the plastic is a styrene based plastic, and likely I would need to utilize a stronger liquid styrene adhesive such as Plasticweld or similar.

If it is truly styrene based, then I would surly imagined that MEK would have worked??
 
NMRA Bone-headed move to RP25

BTW, this was a subject thread I ran across on this forum while I was first looking for discussions of flangeways in our turnouts,....




...and then a good reply...
I have to reply here. I too have ran into problems with American RP25 wheels. I have 99% of my collection is trix, fleischmann, marklin hamo, and HAG ho. I have been in the hobby for 60 years and had very little interest in American prototypes because I did not like the quality compared to European manufacturers. I had some rivarossi back in the 60s and 70s but felt their quality was sub par. I use code 100 flex track with number 6 custom atlas turnouts and have no issues with derailments. Recently, I purchased the Trix Union Pacific diesel. This made a point of stating it came with RP 25 wheels. This loco derailed on everyone of my turnouts. I thought the wheels might have been out of gauge so I checked them. They were perfect. I gave up on the engine and put it in my display case. Recently, I purchased a beautiful BLI p6. I was willing to give an American prototype another shot because it was all metal, heavy, and was an attractive prototype. Again it derailed on my atlas turnouts, and nearly every curve24 inch radius. That joined the trix UP in my display. Finally, I purchased a BLI GGI. Again a beautiful, all metal engine. Again with the derailments. I have more than 300 European engines from 1956 till today. Not a single issue with any of them. The problem is these lousy RP25 wheels. There are apparently a lot of “wheel snobs” who think they can tell the difference with a RP25 wheel flange vs an NEM wheel flange. I’ll stick with European manufacturers and will never waste a penny on an American prototype again. It’s not worth the aggravation
 
I am aware that they offer some black materials (likely styrene), but that not my major concern.

***********************************************
Modifying our flangeways in Peco Turnouts
to SHIM or BEND ?

Sorry to be bringing this subject up again, but yesterday I was running some experiments on a couple of turnouts I wanted to 'improve'.

In the previous discussions I had sort of settled on adding shims to the guard rails of the Pecos rather than bending those guard rails. When I went looking at the best adhesives to utilize for installing these shims, I ran into a problem. Almost NOTHING likes to stick to plastic utilized in these Pecos ! I tried a number of adhesives to include a generic superglue from Harbor Freight, Gorilla glue, MEK, etc. A few of them acted like they wanted to adhere, but you could tell they were not truly secure for the long run. (I really thought/hoped that MEK was going to be the answer).

I can only surmise at this point that the plastic used to make these Pecos is some sort plastic similar to that used by the glue makers to contain the glues they are selling,....nothing REALLY sticks to them?? Does ANYONE know what specific plastic they use??

That being the case I'm back to reconsidering the 'bending' of those guard rails.

......various pieces of potential shim materials tying to adhere to an old Peco turout,..
DSCF7784.jpg
When in doubt, Walther's Goo! A little dab'll do ya!
 
The taper of a 1:1 scale wheel tread allows the inner wheel on the inner rail to travel a shorter distance than the wheel on the outer rail of a curve..
An automobile uses a 'differential' on its rear axle to afford this.. As it'd be too costly and add too much maintenance to have a 'diff' in middle of every train axle, 2-3 per truck, the tapered tread performs this 'difference'... Autos must have a 'diff' because they can not have tapered tires like train wheels (at least, not as yet) !
 
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