Fighting the sierra grade up to "Dog Soldier Pass" : An ongoing struggle.
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I am no BEMF specialist but I don't think it could help in this case.
I guess it's just basics physical constraints, somehow like on the prototype.
I should have "divided" the power, mid or rear train helpers are not only added power, they
"push" the cars together which is a relief for the couplers. They even push on a downgrade to keep the train together.
I thought : Well it's "only" 35 cars, no big deal compared to the real world. I was wrong, 35 HO railcars is quite a weight, and the 90cm (36") minimum radius I use in some areas is probably on the sharp side, eventhough it's 110cm , about 44", at Sullivan's curve.
Rico's comment is interesting, concerning vertical transitions I made sure they were long enough. The shortests are 0,5% on 50cm
(20") then 1% on the next meter (40"), then another meter at 2% and finally the 3% climb.
So that's 2,5 m (8'2") between 0 and 3%.
Same thing when reaching the top of the grade and for a downgrade.
Everywhere possible I made them longer with a wider vertical angle.
In other words it takes room, that's why I changed my mind at the planning stage.
I first wanted to depict both sides of a mountain pass, after calculation I gave up.
I would have needed a total minimum vertical transitions of 5 m on one side plus 5 m on the other side. Grand total 10 m !! More than 33 ft ! Only for vertical transitions ! WOW !
I think most couplers are Kadees, I should check again the different car brands I own and how they are equiped.
The incident occured because of a sudden uncoupling, nothing broke. Eventhough I checked couplers height, I noticed sometimes very small differences from one car to another. Also normal couplers and scale or semi scale couplers don't necessarily work well together.
I suppose couplers somehow "slipped" vertically under the constraint. The curves superelevation could be an added factor.
Anyway, the positive side of this incident is that it opened my eyes to more operating possibilities.
Yaqui Wells is where heavy westbound trains stop to add helpers for the climb.
From there to Sandy Flats the curves at Yaqui Wells, Buzzard Canyon and entering Dead Horse Canyon bear very wide radii, only the curve at the grade crossing just before Sandy Flats is a sharper 36" radius.
I never noticed issues on this first part of the climb despite the 3% grade.
The remaining part up the pass is also a 3% average grade, but a lot more tortuous.
I decided to now stop those big heavy trains at Sandy Flats and "double the hill".
Hence more operation, more engine moves and more fun. YEAH it seems exciting !
Back in 1988 was my first road trip in the USA. I already had the greatest interest in north american railroading. Being in the west I visited all possible well known train watching spots. Cajon Pass, Tehachapi crossing, Soledad Canyon, Donner pass, Feather river Canyon, Soldier summit in Utah and so on.
The very first spot was Tennessee pass in Colorado. I'll never forget :
A 100 car D&RGW coal train climbing at less than 30 mph, pulled by 7 locos at the head end, and 9 more ! 30 cars before the end.
What a thrill ! I could feel my guts shaking from the deep bass sounds. Unforgettable.
Canadian Kicking Horse pass is another fantastic spot in the rockies, but good equipment is required for most of the loops access is remote, and watch out for grizzlies and other black bears.
Wow ! It's an amazing surround sound experience amplified by the "rock" formations and also the curved backdrop.
I love this hobby !
L8r
The most impressive was a D&RGW 100 cars coal train climbing Colorado Tennessee pass, fighting the 3% grade with a total of 16 units ! Unforgettable ! That was back in 1988.
Soldier summit, Utah is another great spot.
When I say "mountainous", I mean a range pass accessible to a modern RR, nothing like the Alps or the Pyrénées mountains we have here in Europe.
Affiliate Disclosure: We may receive a commision from some of the links and ads shown on this website (Learn More Here)
Hello everybody.
I carry on my pulling tests. This time I again pushed my luck, TOO FAR ! I can't help...
Since I fixed the trackage at Rattler Gap and checked the railcars, I decided to try again a long train, long for a model, with both locos consisted at the head end and 35 cars in tow.
And Rico is right, the Atlas is a fantastic puller, with its Geep companion it climbed the 3% grade between Yaqui Wells and Sandy Flats slowly but surely, impressive sight !
On the Blunami app control screen I maintained a step 5 speed maximum to avoid a disaster above Buzzard Canyon. Watching the train grinding its way up at slow speed with both engines shouting in notch 8
is just mesmeric.
The train passed the Twin tunnels and dove into Big loop tunnel. Then seeing the locos running above the last railcars in a "Tehachapi loop manner" was another great moment.
Between Chuckwalla cut and Rattler Gap trains encounter a 3,4% grade portion, the toughest part of the climb, down on their knees the engines made it, with difficulty, but succeeded.
Then came the downgrade at Sullivan's curve, and suddenly, with a big noise, the couplers failed between the 4th and the 5th car !!
I ran 12 feet back to manually avoid the wild run downgrade of the last 20 cars, just in time. I derailed some so they acted as a handbrake. At the same time I heard the noise of two derailed cars falling on the floor farther up at Bernie's shiner !!!
Three more cars had derailed at the west portal of the short tunnel before Rattler Gap.
After picking up the two cars on the aisle floor, I realized that all the power on the head end was way too much for the couplers, especially with 1 third of the train on a downgrade and the other 2 third still moving upgrade. Too many constraints.
I would’ve put one engine on the head end and the second one 10 cars before the end,
it could have been different, that is less stress on the couplers. Should I try again...
well...naw... Maybe with a mattress on the floor at Bernie's shiner ? Maybe...
I was lucky concerning the two fallen cars, a box car and a tank car.
A popped out roof and a tiny detail to fix, no big damage for the box car, I'll have to replace a coupler though.
And just a couple details to put back in place on the tank car, nothing broken.
Very lucky considering that the diving board is situated 140cm (56") above the floor !
I tell you, mountain railroading is a dangerous but fascinating experience...
I carry on my pulling tests. This time I again pushed my luck, TOO FAR ! I can't help...
Since I fixed the trackage at Rattler Gap and checked the railcars, I decided to try again a long train, long for a model, with both locos consisted at the head end and 35 cars in tow.
And Rico is right, the Atlas is a fantastic puller, with its Geep companion it climbed the 3% grade between Yaqui Wells and Sandy Flats slowly but surely, impressive sight !
On the Blunami app control screen I maintained a step 5 speed maximum to avoid a disaster above Buzzard Canyon. Watching the train grinding its way up at slow speed with both engines shouting in notch 8
is just mesmeric.
The train passed the Twin tunnels and dove into Big loop tunnel. Then seeing the locos running above the last railcars in a "Tehachapi loop manner" was another great moment.
Between Chuckwalla cut and Rattler Gap trains encounter a 3,4% grade portion, the toughest part of the climb, down on their knees the engines made it, with difficulty, but succeeded.
Then came the downgrade at Sullivan's curve, and suddenly, with a big noise, the couplers failed between the 4th and the 5th car !!
I ran 12 feet back to manually avoid the wild run downgrade of the last 20 cars, just in time. I derailed some so they acted as a handbrake. At the same time I heard the noise of two derailed cars falling on the floor farther up at Bernie's shiner !!!
Three more cars had derailed at the west portal of the short tunnel before Rattler Gap.
After picking up the two cars on the aisle floor, I realized that all the power on the head end was way too much for the couplers, especially with 1 third of the train on a downgrade and the other 2 third still moving upgrade. Too many constraints.
I would’ve put one engine on the head end and the second one 10 cars before the end,
it could have been different, that is less stress on the couplers. Should I try again...
well...naw... Maybe with a mattress on the floor at Bernie's shiner ? Maybe...
I was lucky concerning the two fallen cars, a box car and a tank car.
A popped out roof and a tiny detail to fix, no big damage for the box car, I'll have to replace a coupler though.
And just a couple details to put back in place on the tank car, nothing broken.
Very lucky considering that the diving board is situated 140cm (56") above the floor !
I tell you, mountain railroading is a dangerous but fascinating experience...
Rico
BNSF Modeller
I can relate to that Frenchie!
Occasionally I will run a train that has no business being on my rails, like a thirty six car or longer coal train with three locos on the lead. It sure is cool to watch!
That is until the front half hits the flats while the rear half bunches up coming down the grade.
Yikes!
I solved this by placing the third loco on the last third of the train which seems to help with the stretch going up grade as well.
It worked with the Railpro equipped locos although I haven’t tried it with DCC equipped locos yet.
Occasionally I will run a train that has no business being on my rails, like a thirty six car or longer coal train with three locos on the lead. It sure is cool to watch!
That is until the front half hits the flats while the rear half bunches up coming down the grade.
Yikes!
I solved this by placing the third loco on the last third of the train which seems to help with the stretch going up grade as well.
It worked with the Railpro equipped locos although I haven’t tried it with DCC equipped locos yet.
KriegslokBR52
Well-Known Member
That is some immense scenery. As someone who travels out west every year on vacation, i absolutely love it.
Hi Kusojiji !
I am no BEMF specialist but I don't think it could help in this case.
I guess it's just basics physical constraints, somehow like on the prototype.
I should have "divided" the power, mid or rear train helpers are not only added power, they
"push" the cars together which is a relief for the couplers. They even push on a downgrade to keep the train together.
I thought : Well it's "only" 35 cars, no big deal compared to the real world. I was wrong, 35 HO railcars is quite a weight, and the 90cm (36") minimum radius I use in some areas is probably on the sharp side, eventhough it's 110cm , about 44", at Sullivan's curve.
Rico's comment is interesting, concerning vertical transitions I made sure they were long enough. The shortests are 0,5% on 50cm
(20") then 1% on the next meter (40"), then another meter at 2% and finally the 3% climb.
So that's 2,5 m (8'2") between 0 and 3%.
Same thing when reaching the top of the grade and for a downgrade.
Everywhere possible I made them longer with a wider vertical angle.
In other words it takes room, that's why I changed my mind at the planning stage.
I first wanted to depict both sides of a mountain pass, after calculation I gave up.
I would have needed a total minimum vertical transitions of 5 m on one side plus 5 m on the other side. Grand total 10 m !! More than 33 ft ! Only for vertical transitions ! WOW !
KriegslokBR52
Well-Known Member
I was wondering what couplers are you using. I've heard about McHenry couplers breaking, but never about metal Kadees having the same issue. Where i live, we don't have mountains like out west (Appalachians), but there were a few severe grades, like Saluda grade down south. Not too far from my town was a mainline of Lehigh and New England, and they did have 3% grade coming out of Bath, towards Benders Junction. Back in the steam days every train of more than 35 cars had to be divided at the bottom of the grade. Two steam locomotives, a 2-8-0 and 2-10-0 would then double the consist and slug it up hill with boosters on tenders cut in.
Kusojiji
RANK AMATEURS OF THE MODEL RAILROAD FORM MEMBER
Yeah, I guess a helper cut into the train might help and I guess that's where BEMF may help, from what I've read about it, not sure though.
I tried to run a train aound a 16 x 20 ft room. I had enough track, cars and locos to go end to end - on n-scale. Yeah, that didn't work!
Was it a metal kadee that failed? Or was it a retainer/pocket on the car?
Man, you must be having fun! Running long trains on that beautiful layout! Awesome!
I tried to run a train aound a 16 x 20 ft room. I had enough track, cars and locos to go end to end - on n-scale. Yeah, that didn't work!
Was it a metal kadee that failed? Or was it a retainer/pocket on the car?
Man, you must be having fun! Running long trains on that beautiful layout! Awesome!
Rico
BNSF Modeller
I’d have to dig out my papers but someone here may know this…
I recall the CPR line to Trail BC had a grade over four percent!
There were special handling instructions for going down grade you needed X amount of empty cars between X amount of loaded cars, something to do with braking.
Not sure about going up but I think a rear loco was required in case of coupler failure.
I recall the CPR line to Trail BC had a grade over four percent!
There were special handling instructions for going down grade you needed X amount of empty cars between X amount of loaded cars, something to do with braking.
Not sure about going up but I think a rear loco was required in case of coupler failure.
Very interesting story, thank's.
I think most couplers are Kadees, I should check again the different car brands I own and how they are equiped.
The incident occured because of a sudden uncoupling, nothing broke. Eventhough I checked couplers height, I noticed sometimes very small differences from one car to another. Also normal couplers and scale or semi scale couplers don't necessarily work well together.
I suppose couplers somehow "slipped" vertically under the constraint. The curves superelevation could be an added factor.
Anyway, the positive side of this incident is that it opened my eyes to more operating possibilities.
Yaqui Wells is where heavy westbound trains stop to add helpers for the climb.
From there to Sandy Flats the curves at Yaqui Wells, Buzzard Canyon and entering Dead Horse Canyon bear very wide radii, only the curve at the grade crossing just before Sandy Flats is a sharper 36" radius.
I never noticed issues on this first part of the climb despite the 3% grade.
The remaining part up the pass is also a 3% average grade, but a lot more tortuous.
I decided to now stop those big heavy trains at Sandy Flats and "double the hill".
Hence more operation, more engine moves and more fun. YEAH it seems exciting !
Yes Rico, interesting.
Back in 1988 was my first road trip in the USA. I already had the greatest interest in north american railroading. Being in the west I visited all possible well known train watching spots. Cajon Pass, Tehachapi crossing, Soledad Canyon, Donner pass, Feather river Canyon, Soldier summit in Utah and so on.
The very first spot was Tennessee pass in Colorado. I'll never forget :
A 100 car D&RGW coal train climbing at less than 30 mph, pulled by 7 locos at the head end, and 9 more ! 30 cars before the end.
What a thrill ! I could feel my guts shaking from the deep bass sounds. Unforgettable.
Canadian Kicking Horse pass is another fantastic spot in the rockies, but good equipment is required for most of the loops access is remote, and watch out for grizzlies and other black bears.
The same problem came back, another derailment in the same curve portion at Rattler Gap. I thought the issue was solved, NAW !
Well, I pulled up my sleeves and checked again the superelevation. I decided to reduce it drastically and, this time , all the way from the eastern entrance of Sullivan's Curve to the end of the curve at Black widow wash, a 170 cm, (5' 8") long stretch of track.
It took me almost 4 hours working very carefully to be satisfied. I used a railcar to check my progress but the best tool is definitely the eye.
After wedging the track properly I ran a test train without any issues, then I reballasted.
Hopefully it will be fine now. Who will live will see.
Maintening a railroad is a tough job...
Well, I pulled up my sleeves and checked again the superelevation. I decided to reduce it drastically and, this time , all the way from the eastern entrance of Sullivan's Curve to the end of the curve at Black widow wash, a 170 cm, (5' 8") long stretch of track.
It took me almost 4 hours working very carefully to be satisfied. I used a railcar to check my progress but the best tool is definitely the eye.
After wedging the track properly I ran a test train without any issues, then I reballasted.
Hopefully it will be fine now. Who will live will see.
Maintening a railroad is a tough job...
Hi everybody !
I finally received part of the Kadees 148 ordered by mid December.
I ordered 15 packs, good for 30 cars. So far I received 8 packs.
I installed them in place of the scale or semi scale couplers whatever the brand, but eventhough I replaced the Kadees 158, I kept them, I discarded all others.
148s are slightly bigger than 158s but it is'nt that noticable. They are stronger and more reliable, I didn't notice any "wild" uncoupling like it happened sometimes before the change.
I think scale couplers are great for photography and relatively short trains, hence little constraints. My layout is of the roller coaster kind, ups and downs, superelevated curves and countercurves, miniature mountain railroading, too tough on the small couplers.
I finally received part of the Kadees 148 ordered by mid December.
I ordered 15 packs, good for 30 cars. So far I received 8 packs.
I installed them in place of the scale or semi scale couplers whatever the brand, but eventhough I replaced the Kadees 158, I kept them, I discarded all others.
148s are slightly bigger than 158s but it is'nt that noticable. They are stronger and more reliable, I didn't notice any "wild" uncoupling like it happened sometimes before the change.
I think scale couplers are great for photography and relatively short trains, hence little constraints. My layout is of the roller coaster kind, ups and downs, superelevated curves and countercurves, miniature mountain railroading, too tough on the small couplers.
Hello !
I am really happy of the Kadees 148, it was the best choice for my "mountainous" layout.
No more wild uncoupling, a great relief.
I regularly run 20 to 25 car trains up or down the range with one lead unit and one pusher 13 to 14 cars back in the train. No problems.
With realism in mind, I try to find the correct
"mountain scale speed". Heavy prototype trains negociate tough grades at very slow speed, upgrade or downgrade.
I have seen trains crawling up or down at less than 20 mph.
Since our model railroads are always too short, we use selective compression for scenery, so I decided to compress the speed too. Around scale 10 mph should do it
I tested and found out that using step 7 (Blunami app speed steps) as a maximum,
duplicates very well the struggling to fight gravity.
There are more positive sides to this, it gives me plenty of time to watch the trains from close and to enjoy the surrounding scenery.
With the sounds, crawling locos climbing in notch 8 are just fascinating !
Trains going downgrade at slow speed with full dynamics howling is also a real thrill.
At constant step 7 it takes 30 minutes for a train to run the visible scenicked part of the layout.
It takes 47 minutes to run the continuous route via the helix.
This chosen speed proves to be ideal for this type of layout.
I tell you, I'll NEVER go back to non sound model locos !
I am really happy of the Kadees 148, it was the best choice for my "mountainous" layout.
No more wild uncoupling, a great relief.
I regularly run 20 to 25 car trains up or down the range with one lead unit and one pusher 13 to 14 cars back in the train. No problems.
With realism in mind, I try to find the correct
"mountain scale speed". Heavy prototype trains negociate tough grades at very slow speed, upgrade or downgrade.
I have seen trains crawling up or down at less than 20 mph.
Since our model railroads are always too short, we use selective compression for scenery, so I decided to compress the speed too. Around scale 10 mph should do it
I tested and found out that using step 7 (Blunami app speed steps) as a maximum,
duplicates very well the struggling to fight gravity.
There are more positive sides to this, it gives me plenty of time to watch the trains from close and to enjoy the surrounding scenery.
With the sounds, crawling locos climbing in notch 8 are just fascinating !
Trains going downgrade at slow speed with full dynamics howling is also a real thrill.
At constant step 7 it takes 30 minutes for a train to run the visible scenicked part of the layout.
It takes 47 minutes to run the continuous route via the helix.
This chosen speed proves to be ideal for this type of layout.
I tell you, I'll NEVER go back to non sound model locos !
It's hard to explain the thrill, as an example I could spend hours, sitting on a stool, watching at eye level trains slowly snaking above Buzzard Canyon and entering Dead Horse Canyon with engine sounds reverberating against and between the "rock" walls, or standing in the middle of Sullivan's curve and hearing the lead engine on one ear and the helper on the other one.
Wow ! It's an amazing surround sound experience amplified by the "rock" formations and also the curved backdrop.
I love this hobby !
ctclibby
Well-Known Member
Frenchie: Doesn't have to be actual mountains either. Tehachapi is <10Mph up or down. You can walk beside 'dem trains. Few years back they had problems with engineers falling asleep mid grade and running into the back of another. IIRC, think that was when BNSF only had one in the cab, UP has always been two or more. Since fixed.
L8r
Yes L8r, that's one of the spots where I witnessed the slow speeds I mentioned previously. I also remember Santa Fe eastbounds at Cajon or SP westbounds on the now gone original main line above Donner lake struggling toward Donner pass summit in the Sierra Nevada.
The most impressive was a D&RGW 100 cars coal train climbing Colorado Tennessee pass, fighting the 3% grade with a total of 16 units ! Unforgettable ! That was back in 1988.
Soldier summit, Utah is another great spot.
When I say "mountainous", I mean a range pass accessible to a modern RR, nothing like the Alps or the Pyrénées mountains we have here in Europe.
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