Even more confused about DCC


NYSW F45

NYSW F45

Active Member
Ok after browsign around ebay and looking at DCC equipped loco's i got more confused.

I have 1 athearn DCC ready sd40t-2 that I just bought and have a Kato SD80Mac that is also DCC ready. What needs to be connected to both in order to use lets say the digitrax zypher system?

Im using pics to help me understand better.
This is a digitrax athearn/kato mobile decoder. What does this do that the board int he athearn/kato dont do ?
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Next is a decoder that plugs into i guess the board above or one's that come preinstalled from the factory. Why do you need this if the board is a decoder?
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And lastly is a sound decoder. If you want sound do you need this and the other decoder above? Or does this do both, control power/lights and sound?
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Sorry if these seem like basic NOOB dcc questions, but from what I've read i still dont have an answer for myself. I have a hard time understanding things unless it's explained to me in the easiest of ways (sux having a learning disability) I just dont want to end up spending more money then I have to when I finally get a dcc system like the zypher.
 
For a regular non-sound decoder, the only wires you need to hook up are 2 for power and 2 for the motor. You can also connect the accessory wires to lighting but that is not mandatory.

What "DCC ready" means is there is a some type of connector board installed that splits out the motor and rail connections to make it easier to connect to.

Older chassis that still have the motor grounded to the chassis need to have the motor isolated from the chassis. No matter what, the two power terminals for the motor must be isolated from the rail power or the decoder will be damaged.

As for your pics:

#1. This looks like a "drop in" type decoder that fits into a specific DCC ready engine. It would fit specific engines.

#2. That is a hard wire type with the NMRA plug. It does not connect to the #1 board, it is actually the same as the #1 board just a different shape (a "universal" type).

Don't worry about being confused, I was too at first. Others here who have the DCC ready engines you have should be able to help you on what decoders you need.

Mark
 
And with the exception of some BLI products (Blueline) and the Digitrax "Soundbug" decoders, your average Soundtraxx, Loksound, QSI, or MRC "Brilliance" sound decoder is going to also control the locomotive, lights, etc.

When it comes to hooking into a locomotive you will generally find 4 different types of decoders out there (with a 5th one on the way):

1. Hardwire - this one just leaves you with a wiring harness of wires that you get the adventure of soldering in. For some (many) locomotives this is the only way to get a decoder in them since they were designed and built long before DCC became popular - or even possible.

2. 8-pin NMRA - this is the official NMRA plug-in style that fits a plug on the locomotive DC circuit board and takes over control. Probably the easiest all around. Atlas Silver Series locomotives, among many others, will accept this. Comes in various wire harness lengths for tight or roomy installs.

3. 9-pin JST - Athearn's favorite as far as I can tell. Same idea as the 8-pin NMRA but with an extra wire. Why? I have no idea.

4. Drop-in - the first one in your question, this replaces the entire circuit board in a locomotive and must be designed to fit that particular locomotive. This is what Atlas used to use before going with non-sound, plug equipped Silver and QSI sound decoder equipped Gold series. Kato and some Athearn Genesis have drop ins, and due to the size limitations they are very popular in N Scale.

5. 21-pin - because 8/9 pins isn't enough. Seriously - this is an up and coming proposed standard that is already being used by some in Europe. More pins/wires means more functions, which is one reason why there are 20 or so functions now defined for DCC.
 
Remember, to simplify what DCC does... An on board computer chip, that you program to a number (usually the road number for most users) tells the locomotive when to move.

Mix & matching should work. The board versions require replacing the current board which just controls the output of the lights on DC (to allow for directional lighting on DC), where as the DCC board, well it controls it all.

DCC Ready, and DCC quick plug quipped are 2 different things, technically. I'll expand on Jeff's answer here:
Ready usually means the motor is isolated from the frame and some sort of circuit board is used in the process of transferring power.
Quick Plug Equipped means that it would have an 8 or 9 pin JST plug requiring no removal of the DC circuit board, or in the case of BlueLine, removal of the on board dual mode sound decoder.

Dual Mode Decoder Equipped means it has DCC but the decoder it designed to run on DC also, where it will notice the DC power, and operate like a DC powered unit (DCC provides power and the decoder recognizes that).

If it does NOT say its DCC Ready, OR Quick Plug Equipped, it can still be transformed, but that usually requires isolating the motor from the chassis and using what Jeff referred to as hardwire. On Athearn units, its gotten even easier now, as there's a solderless decoder on the market designed for older Athearn units.
 
Ok i kinda get the picture a lil better now. I just double checked on Kato's site about my SD80Mac. It says DCC plug equipped. So does this mean I just need to buy one of those plug in decoders?
 
NYSW F45 said:
Ok i kinda get the picture a lil better now. I just double checked on Kato's site about my SD80Mac. It says DCC plug equipped. So does this mean I just need to buy one of those plug in decoders?
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All you need is an 8pin NMRA decoder. You don't even have to worry about resistors, as Kato uses LED's for the lights. Make sure to check your engines contacts on the Kato SD80/90's some of the early run had engine contacts that were too long and shorted out in DCC. There is more information about the issue on the Kato web site.
 
CP9302 said:
All you need is an 8pin NMRA decoder. You don't even have to worry about resistors, as Kato uses LED's for the lights. Make sure to check your engines contacts on the Kato SD80/90's some of the early run had engine contacts that were too long and shorted out in DCC. There is more information about the issue on the Kato web site.
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I saw that warning. You have to remove the contact pin, then slide it under and thru the hole instead of if it just going over and down.
 
For the Athearn SD40T-2, any 9-pin JST plug decoder will work. I use NCE D13SRJ's in my Athearn RTR's and haven't had any trouble. I uses an NCE D13SRP in Kato Dash 9 with a 8 pin plug with no difficulties either.
 
CP9302 said:
All you need is an 8pin NMRA decoder. You don't even have to worry about resistors, as Kato uses LED's for the lights. Make sure to check your engines contacts on the Kato SD80/90's some of the early run had engine contacts that were too long and shorted out in DCC. There is more information about the issue on the Kato web site.
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I'm about to convert my KATO EMD SD90/43MAC with a Digitrax DN163K2. I got the loco from another hobbyist and don't know it's age. Considering this will be my first attempt at a DCC conversion I am very hesitant to do anything that might harm the loco or the decoder. What should I look for to make this a successful project? Thanks.

One more thing...I looked for any model-specific information on this conversion on Kato's web page and found nothing. Maybe I missed something???
 
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need to bring this back up. i was checking my kato engine out and was looking over the board that came with it. only things connected to it are the 2 black power wires for each truck and the bulbs soldered to it. other then that there is no where for anyking of plastic/metal plug to be plugged into. or do i replace the entire board with a new one.

this is what i want to do with the locomotives i will be keeping. Have DCC control the power/traction of each unit, control the lighting (heads/ditch/class/direction) and sound. im definitely thinking about goung sound on atleast a few of the engines. I found a guy on ebay that is selling brand new athearn motors with drive shafts/worm gears with a new dcc board attached. I might pick up 2 and swap them into my FP45 and original athearn sd40t-2. each still has the "tan can".
 
1) yes, you want to replace the board completely inside the Kato unit with the new board.

2) the driveline you looked at on Ebay has a newer motor, splines and DCC READY board, but not a decoder. That plug on top of the board is setup to recieve the 9 pin dcc decoder, and the board will convert the voltage down to 1.5v for the lights.
These work great for updating older equipment and making them DCC ready easier. But, there will be some soldering to do this way. You will have to solder pickup wires to the trucks, to supply power to the motor now, but its relatively easy and better than the old way.:cool:
 
ThoroughBreed said:
1) yes, you want to replace the board completely inside the Kato unit with the new board.

2) the driveline you looked at on Ebay has a newer motor, splines and DCC READY board, but not a decoder. That plug on top of the board is setup to recieve the 9 pin dcc decoder, and the board will convert the voltage down to 1.5v for the lights.
These work great for updating older equipment and making them DCC ready easier. But, there will be some soldering to do this way. You will have to solder pickup wires to the trucks, to supply power to the motor now, but its relatively easy and better than the old way.:cool:
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ok cool. so if i bought that new motor with board and add a nmra decoder with plug to it,it is now DCC correct? as for the soldering as long as i have decent directions i could do it. its trying to tackle electronics without any guidance that screws me up.

so as of now looks like i'll be upgrading the motors in my older athearns units and any that i win on ebay in the new few weeks.
 
Ah, excellent grasshopper, you are learning well. LOL, jk:D
We'll be more than happy to assist you with explaining the "where to" solder points.:cool:
 
ok im going to probably order 2 of the newer motors 1 for the tunnel motor and 1 for the fp45. im just hoping the drivelines will match up and neither motor will be to long or short.

but as for decoders, can you mix and max decoders and dcc operating systems?

for instance using a digitrax decoder for a kato and have the NCE pro cab system to run everything will it work together?
 
the splines on those motors will be too long for your apllications. you will end up ordering different splines in a shorter length.
But as far as using different decoders together in a different dcc system, it works well. I use LEnz, MRC, Digitrax, NCE, and TCS decoders on a MRC ADvance2 dcc system with no problems.
 
as for making the motor fit, i can't imagine it beeing to difficult. Looking at the shells aren't most bodies where the motor rests under abotu the same width anyway? Only thing i could see beeing a problem is the motor mounts which i could buy new anyway. As for the splines, would I be able to swap over the originals from the 2 models?

and not to keep asking such noooobish questions on the DCC stuff. Since you can use any decoder with any DCC system, how does the DCC throttle like NCE procab recognize the decoder? Do you have to program it?
 
DCC controllers basically poll the decoder and the decoder returns control value data to the controller. That's how the controller knows you have ditch lights, for example, and allows you to set them to off, on, or flashing. Depending in the decoder and controller, they are capable of reading and returning either 64 or 128 speed steps. Whatever is the maximum number the controller can read and the decoder can put out is what the default speed steps will be. For the vast majority of the cases, this works with no further intervention. It's helpful to have a controller to read CV's and adjust the speed steps if you have two or more engines running together in consist so they both respond the same at the same speed. Other than that, either 64 or 128 speed steps is orders of magnitude better than anything you can find in DC in terms of controlling the locomotve. I have a P2K GP-7 with sound and it will literally take the entire layout at walking speed without a stutter out of it. It's really quite amazing to see the difference when you put even a really good DC engine of the tracks and run it with a DC controller.
 
well im convinced now. but i may be ordering 3 sd70m in emd demo paint for a small lil fleet that i haven't decided on what to paint. but atleast i know the decoders are fairly cheap. and the nce system isn't overly priced either. its something i can ask the fiancee for christmas.

Now, which sound decoders do you guys recommend? i thinking of getting at least 1 and stuff the sound decoder in the dummy sd40-2 i'll have set up with the powered one all the time.
 
NYSW F45 said:
well im convinced now. but i may be ordering 3 sd70m in emd demo paint for a small lil fleet that i haven't decided on what to paint.
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I picked up one from trainland for $49.99, ordered it Saturday and got it today. Mine is a lease unit, not a demo though. Its from the first run sd70's, in that no detail parts are applied, making it a prime candidate for painting. But, to dcc this unit, I'll have to change the entire light board out with a TCS A6X, so no big loss.:cool:
 
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