Drop feeders


New Guy, one thing you might think of is whether there is ANY possibility in the future that you might want to separate your layout into smaller blocks. For signaling, for power management, for whatever. I drop power at every flex track junction and on all diverging sides of turnouts simply for that reason. I'm not currently planning on ever having any block detection-based signaling, BUT I don't know where my head and motivation are going to be five or six years from now. SO, since I basically have power running to nearly every rail join on the layout, if I ever want to cut some gaps and create blocks for signal operation, crossing gates, whatever...I can do so very easily without having to do more than slightly modify the wiring under the table. No new power drops or having to mess around in track, ballast and scenery that's already in place.

For my current trackwork and the few power districts I currently have set up, it's overkill. Definitely. It adds a *little* work and expense to the track laying, but in the end really not much at all when you look at the big picture of the layout. A little future-proof insurance that may never be needed, but I'll likely thank myself for if I ever do need it. And of course, as others have stated, it does also future-proof any rail joins that might wriggle loose in the future too.
 
In the old days when I was running a large layout on DC I was satisfied to simply turn on the power supply and start up my old Blue Box loco and if it went down the track then everything was all good. Those days are gone. With DCC and RailPro which are wired exactly the same it is mandatory that a constant track voltage be maintained in older to prevent damage to control systems. Too little track voltage can damage decoders and over heat motors. I have found over the years that the biggest track power problems stemmed from poor electrical continuity through rail joiners. And when they fail it is sometimes very difficult to find. They will work just fine when you put a tester on them but when you put a load on them with a locomotive they will break down and only a little voltage gets through, or no voltage at all.

Since I installed down feeders to every section of track, those problems have disappeared. My layout has a constant 14.5 volts anywhere, even with three locos running at the same time.My layout is all handlaid and I still use rail joiners mainly for track alignment, especially on curves. It may seem to be an overkill but it is worth the time,effort and wire.

Cheers
Mel
 
90% of my current build is sectional track, I have four feeds currently, I will be adding at least two more when I construct the branchline, all the sections were cleaned prior to putting them down, the joints got a spot of carbon grease, used it on the last track, never had a problem with dead sections.
 
Well goooolleeeee. I guess I'll just go and clip all my drop feeders off of my empire and replace my one soldered power connection with a clip on. I really don't want to be accused of overdoing my power connections.
 
Actually it's pretty rare that I've ever seen anyone criticized in this hobby for overdoing anything. :p

As far as I can tell, I don't think that's happening here, either.
 
New Guy, one thing you might think of is whether there is ANY possibility in the future that you might want to separate your layout into smaller blocks. For signaling, for power management, for whatever. I drop power at every flex track junction and on all diverging sides of turnouts simply for that reason. I'm not currently planning on ever having any block detection-based signaling, BUT I don't know where my head and motivation are going to be five or six years from now. SO, since I basically have power running to nearly every rail join on the layout, if I ever want to cut some gaps and create blocks for signal operation, crossing gates, whatever...I can do so very easily without having to do more than slightly modify the wiring under the table. No new power drops or having to mess around in track, ballast and scenery that's already in place.

For my current trackwork and the few power districts I currently have set up, it's overkill. Definitely. It adds a *little* work and expense to the track laying, but in the end really not much at all when you look at the big picture of the layout. A little future-proof insurance that may never be needed, but I'll likely thank myself for if I ever do need it. And of course, as others have stated, it does also future-proof any rail joins that might wriggle loose in the future too.


Yes, absolutely! Three 5 amp blocks is the eventual set up I have now planned. This was an experiment and was never intended to be permanent, Y'all scared me silly with the every three feet thing and I had to find out what I could get away with. "Over wiring" to a small extent seems now like a very sound idea! Just to avoid any hassle in the long, long term. I has wise to get a couple of boosters, a soldering iron and 120 pairs of wired joiners when I had the money. I have a large amount of #14 wire left over from remodeling the house so I'm SET for all my future power needs! No question! I WILL be wiring the heck out of the 'final' final track so I can really concentrate on some well done scenes but I had to 'stretch' it out of curiosity while I've got the room.
 
Well goooolleeeee. I guess I'll just go and clip all my drop feeders off of my empire and replace my one soldered power connection with a clip on. I really don't want to be accused of overdoing my power connections.

Don't mind me, I'm an idiot savant that had no idea of what I was NOT supposed to be able to do! I took off bookin through the mine field and missed em all! Not smart, just LUCKY!
 
In the old days when I was running a large layout on DC I was satisfied to simply turn on the power supply and start up my old Blue Box loco and if it went down the track then everything was all good. Those days are gone. With DCC and RailPro which are wired exactly the same it is mandatory that a constant track voltage be maintained in older to prevent damage to control systems. Too little track voltage can damage decoders and over heat motors. I have found over the years that the biggest track power problems stemmed from poor electrical continuity through rail joiners. And when they fail it is sometimes very difficult to find. They will work just fine when you put a tester on them but when you put a load on them with a locomotive they will break down and only a little voltage gets through, or no voltage at all.

Since I installed down feeders to every section of track, those problems have disappeared. My layout has a constant 14.5 volts anywhere, even with three locos running at the same time.My layout is all handlaid and I still use rail joiners mainly for track alignment, especially on curves. It may seem to be an overkill but it is worth the time,effort and wire.

Cheers
Mel
For a fairly good size HO layout (around-the-wall with peninsula, 12x16') what minimum/maximum wire size would you recommend for the primary wiring, and then what sizes for those multiple feeders?

Is there some sort of 'store bought' extension cordage that could be used for the primary wiring, or is it necessary to utilize two separate wires, and twist those wires together??
 
A circuit is a circuit and must be complete to function so yes you will need two wires. There are wired joiners on the market and I recommend them highly. Twisting is a good idea for a couple reasons, it reduces interference and looks 'cleaner' and less 'grabastic' than having 'loose' wires going all under a layout. I'm using left over hunks of wire from remodeling the house. Solid core is preferred over 'cable' but use what you have or is cheaper it's not a game breaker.

Size wise, the wired joins are #24 gage, the house wire I will be using is #14. My current terminal wires are #18 gage, hope that helps.

Good luck and post some pics when you can.
 
For a fairly good size HO layout (around-the-wall with peninsula, 12x16') what minimum/maximum wire size would you recommend for the primary wiring, and then what sizes for those multiple feeders?
14 gauge/22 gauge is good. That would be standard house wire and standard door bell wire. In general, the more feeders there are, the smaller gauge they can be. I find smaller wire is easier to solder to the rails and therefore is easier to make less visible. Nothing ruins a photo more than a big honking wire coming up out of the "ground" and over to the rail.

Is there some sort of 'store bought' extension cordage that could be used for the primary wiring, or is it necessary to utilize two separate wires, and twist those wires together??
Some extension cordage is twisted inside its sheath. Example - I believe this is twisted http://www.harborfreight.com/25-ft-x-14-gauge-green-outdoor-extension-cord-61862.html

While I am a wire twister, there is little evidence that doing so is significant to the performance of the system.
 
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The wire twisting is most probably an 'overbuild feature' from the 'before time' when you could hear certain cars on your T.V. as they drove by and interference between devices was more common! I'm just planning on doing it cause it looks a little more 'professional'. LOL!
 
Are y'all soldering your track or using rail joiners? I've always read that you drop a feeder for each track run, solder on curves, joiners otherwise.
 
I have never had much success in soldering track joints. It is probably a combination of my soldering technique and track expansion/contraction. I do take a lot of care laying track on curves using rail joiners for alignment. My curves are pretty much derailment free with very little maintenance. My layout is all handlaid with a drop feeder from every piece of track. This was a lot of work but well worth it.

Cheers
Mel
 
I'm just using regular Atlas joins at this time. I did take my sweet time about laying the track.
 
14 gauge/22 gauge is good. That would be standard house wire and standard door bell wire. In general, the more feeders there are, the smaller gauge they can be. I find smaller wire is easier to solder to the rails and therefore is easier to make less visible. Nothing ruins a photo more than a big honking wire coming up out of the "ground" and over to the rail.

Some extension cordage is twisted inside its sheath. Example - I believe this is twisted http://www.harborfreight.com/25-ft-x-14-gauge-green-outdoor-extension-cord-61862.html

While I am a wire twister, there is little evidence that doing so is significant to the performance of the system.

Thanks for that info. I will have to check out the Harbor Freight extension cords you mention, but I'm skeptical as likely a Chinese product. I already have a surplus of extension cords lying around, but I don't think they use a twisted wire core?

I had been reading this site http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track.htm
.....and a few things caught my eye:
1) SUGGESTION: How to Know If Your Wiring is Adequate — The "Quarter Test"
2) TROUBLESHOOTING: Train Does Not Operate Properly When Crossing Between Booster Districts.
3) RECOMMENDATION: Do Not Have a Common Rail or Common Wire Between Booster Districts!
4) SUGGESTION: What Size Wire to Use for Track Feeders?
5) SUGGESTION: What Size Wires You Should Use for Your Bus Wires.
Also, you may find you can buy a 100' of #14 AWG romex cable at your favorite home improvement store cheaper than you can buy two rolls of #16 AWG from your favorite electronics store.

6) Considerations for Layouts with Long Bus Wires
Solution for excessive inductance:
If you have long bus runs, you will need to twist your bus wires. This will also greatly reduce interference.
Twisting your bus wires together is easy. Once twisted, however, it is hard to attach feeders. Worse, if your railroad is already built, twisting your bus wires together is not really an option.
While the more twists the better, more twists will make it much harder to attach feeders. Therefore, I only suggest about 1 twist per foot (or 3 twists per meter). )

7) Why Twist Track Bus Wires?
Maintaining this very tight mechanical relationship over the entire run length of the pair is the key to success. If you're starting with two loose wires, such as from a spool of wire, the best way to achieve that goal is to twist them together to form a "twisted pair". The twisting action mechanically keeps the two wires close to each other all the time and forms a single cable that you can route around the layout easily.

Twisting these same two wires together also provides a second electrical benefit. It will reduce the twisted pair's ability to both spread electrical noise to and pickup electrical noise from OTHER wires nearby. In a sense, twisting the two wires together forms a shielded cable so to speak. The tighter the twist (higher twist rate per foot), the better the shielding effect you get.

This caught my attention !!
Using High Current Boosters with Small Scales (5A and higher current boosters on HO and smaller)

With the availability of 5 amp and higher current boosters, there is the temptation to use them on HO and smaller scales to save on the number of boosters you will need to buy. This can be done, but there are some things you need to know and do to avoid meltdowns and perhaps even fire. (photo of melted loco truck frame)
 
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Are y'all soldering your track or using rail joiners?
I do not solder track except flex track on curves. I like to give it room to flex a bit with temperature and any movement of the roadbed. It also makes it so much easier if one has to come back and change something. All of that is a preference. There is no "right" way to do it. I think some people just like to solder for the fun of it :)
 
7) Long Bus Wire
While the more twists the better, more twists will make it much harder to attach feeders. Therefore, I only suggest about 1 twist per foot (or 3 twists per meter).
I disagree with that statement. More twists is not necessarily better for two reasons. First is that twisting makes the wire longer. The more twists the longer the actual wire in the bus must be to go the same distance. The longer the bus the more true this is. The whole point of a bus is to make the distance from the electricity to the locomotive shorter.

Second when twisting, the interference and noise canceling is because the electromagnetic field of the one wire is counter acting the electromagnetic field in the opposite wire where the current is going the opposite direction. Ideally the wave peak of one wire should be exactly opposite of the wave peak in the other wire. That means the ideal number of twists is dependent on the frequency (also obviously the length of to the load). This is why phone wire is twisted differently than Ethernet wires like CAT-5. Since DCC has a known frequency the best "twist rate" could be calculated. The reason no one does this is because each dropped/attached feeder messes up the equation since the track is also a set of "antenna" conductors running along close buy that are not twisted. Also the load on the wire is moving so there is no exact number that can be calculated. Only a happy medium.

While I don't know what the ideal number is -- nor actually do I really care -- I just know it isn't "more is better". It would get to a point where using shielded cable would be a better option.

Like I said I am a twister (too many years working in the telephone company and on computer networks not to). While the photo below is not my layout (its the museum that has been rock solid for 7 years now), it looks about how I twist wires. I would guess this is about 3 twists per foot.
DCCBus2.jpg
 
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I'm just using regular Atlas joins at this time. I did take my sweet time about laying the track.

NG , from what I gather here that everyone is saying , the chance of developing electrical issues is in the rail joints themselves . If that is the case then would it not be better to solder the feeders to the rails rather than the track joiners? An electric guy I am not , but I think that is the jist of what is being said.
 
I make my own power rail joiners by simply soldering solid bell wire onto the bottom of the rail joiners. Much cheaper than buying them pre-made, and the solid wire will stay where you want it without having to tie it up. I also solder all my rails to maximize connectivity. I've never had a problem yet. Of course, with as many wire drops as I have AND the soldered rails, I'm not sure I COULD have a problem but that's the whole point I guess :)

A couple of caveats: My train room is kept at a constant temperature AND humidity year round. That means I don't have the expansion and contraction issues that others might have to deal with.

Second, if you're soldering rails and using rail joiners which have wires soldered onto them, you have to do something to keep the feeder wire in place because the solder holding it on the joiner is going to melt while you're soldering the rail together. With the solid wire leads I'm using, the simplest trick is just to squirt some Elmer's into the hole that the wire goes through, which locks the wire solidly in place so that it can't move. Without outside influences to make the wire move (such as gravity), solder will stay in place when it turns liquid and simply cool back down with the wire still firmly attached to the rail joiner.

I find it easier in the long run to do my wire drops that way rather than soldering wires to the underside of N-scale rails. It's really tough to do, as far as I'm concerned. The rail joiner and glue trick works much better and more easily for me.
 



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