DCC Questions - Need Help!

[Trussrod]

Hi to all,
I'm new to DCC and have several questions as I have Older HO Steam Loco's mainly by MDC but have a couple of brass loco's too but all are DC.

I've heard and read that in order to put a DCC decoder in an older DC loco you need to isolate/insulate the motor from the frame, so:

1. Does that just imply then that putting a plastic shim under the motor as well as using a Nylon screw/s to hold the motor to the frame is all that is needed with regard to remounting the motor?


2. Do I assume correctly that the brush lead wires are connected to the decoder leads? and two of the decoder leads connect in their place to the frame and the positive connection?


3. If I understand the decoder selection porocess, working off the Digtrax site, for most smaller steam loco's a 1.5amp decoder is sufficent as long as it meant for an HO application like mine?


4. Are there any drawbacks between the different brands for a smaller layout, a folded dog bone shelf of 10'x21' with mainly just one oprator but possibly two on occasion?


5. I'm thinking of using Infra red untethered hand controlers like Digtrax has for my simplified operation. I like the speed control knob over the push buttons.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.


6. Which brand of decoders do you prefer and why?

Hope these are all pertinent questions.

Sure glad there are others that are knowledge about DCC.

 

[Red Oak & Western]

1. The answer to this is "yes, maybe". Yes, because the motor needs to be insulated from the frame. The maybe because it depends on how the motor is installed. I've seen some older locos with can motors held in place with a metal strap, L- brackets, etc. So long as whatever you do, the motor is isolated. At this point, I would recommend investing in a good multimeter (NOT a $5 or $10 Radio Shack / Home Depot / etc. special; Sears is good place to start looking). You'll need it later. After you're insulated the motor, use the "ohms" function to make sure.

2. The best answer here is to follow the instruction sheet that comes with the decoder. It will provide specific instructions on how and where to make connections.

3. Here's where you need the multimeter again. This time, you'll use the "current" function. You need to determine the "stall current" of the motor. This is the maximum current the motor will draw and determines which decoder is required. You need to setup a piece of track and connect a power supply (DC power pack, NOT the DCC power supply) and the meter set to read amperage (current). Set the loco on the track and gently press down until the drivers stop rotating. Immediately note the current on the meter and take the loco off the track. If you stall the motor for too long, it can be destroyed. You should find that the stall current is between 0.9A and 1.2A. Adding a safety margin – a 1.5A HO decoder will be fine. BTW, the N/HO/G designation is for typical usage. Amperage is what really counts. I have a couple of small industrial switchers that draw less than ½ amp. I use "N" scale decoders in them for their small size.

4. No.

5. Untethered is great. I, too, prefer the speed control knob, though my controllers are tethered.

6. Lenz and NCE – Lenz because the came with the controller and they work, NCE because they are direct drop-in replacements for the loco's DC board and they work. You'll note in other posts that "Digitrax is great – Digitrax is junk", "Lenz is great – Lenz is junk", "NCE is great – NCE is junk", etc. Everyone has had a bad experience with something, sometime (Ford's are junk – oh, wait, that’s a different forum). All the major manufacturers try very hard to put out the best product they can, but no quality control is perfect. Bad parts will occasionally get through, but its usually "operator error".

 

[grande man]

Hi David.

I moved your thread to keep it from getting swamped in the general discussion forum. Also, I'd like the answers you recieve to be available and easily found for future reference. They may be helpful to someone searching for info later on.

 

[Joe Daddy]

There are a lot of how to's with pictures scattered all over the net telling and showing how to put different decoders in different locomotives. I'd be surprised if you could not find one similar or exactly like yours. But this all begs the question. Why would I want to convert an old engine to DCC.

Now I am into sound and have converted 3 or 4 different locos and was grossly disappointed every time with the results. Unless your old locomotive runs perfectly, slow speed especially and your soldering skills are excellent, walk on by.

You can find some just tremendous buys on the web for some fine running steam and diesel locomotives for not much more than the price of the decoders. The spectrum 2-8-0 with the tsunami is one example of an amazing little engine. They are also available with DCC and no sound.

I've been doing electronic work since 1963 and there are alot of ways to simply destroy a decoder.

Just my 2 cents never worth another dime!

Joe Daddy

 

[Joe Daddy]

Since I am sure that you will want to go ahead an install your own decoders so you can save a lot of money, here is a link to my primer on exactly how you can burn up your decoder without really trying.

http://wwwjoe-daddy.blogspot.com/2006/12/dcc-decoder-zapping-primer.html

Joe

 

[Trussrod]

A follow up question or two - well maybe three???

Hi Red Oak,
Thanks for your and the information you provided.

*>Your Answer to my 1st ?:
I'm sure there are many different arangements for securing the motor in position but in all my Loco's it's held in place with one or two screws through the frame so isolation/insulation from making electrical contact is realitive easy as long as Nylon machine screws with hold the motor securely enough?

The only other question I have about DCC and the motor is how much heat is built while running? That is I'm wondering if the motor would get hot enough to melt the plastic insulation between the motor and the frame? I would assume the motor should run cool enough to prevent something like this from happening but felt I should ask as a precaution.


*>Your Answer to my 3rd ?:
It more than seem then that if a loco is smooth and free running that an N/HO decoder - good up to 1.5amps is all that is needed and should fill the requirements while even providing a buffer of safety.

I in most cases am also constrained with limited space in my loco's so I'm going to try and use the smallest decoders I can that are meant for N/HO. I assume size doesn't make any difference in operation quality or performance?

>To add a bit to the free opration of an Open-frame motor I recently found out that cleaning the front and rear as well as the comutator groves with a bit of solvent like alcohol or other cleaner prevents any fouling between the comutator plates and makes a world of difference in the motors free running!<


*>Your Answer to my 5th ?:
DigiTrax economical hand throttle is Infrared and I would imagine like a tv remote there me a line of site reception for them to function?


*>Your Answer to my 6th ?:
Well, NOW I'm Really Confuzed, Digitrax Is/Isn't, Lens Is/Isn't as well as the others and even Ford got thrown into the mix and I was, 'NOTE I Said Was', going to buy one of them too BUT Not Any More!! HELP!!!!! Just kidding!!

Thanks, you've helped considerablely,

David

Hi to all,
I'm new to DCC and have several questions as I have Older HO Steam Loco's mainly by MDC but have a couple of brass loco's too but all are DC.

I've heard and read that in order to put a DCC decoder in an older DC loco you need to isolate/insulate the motor from the frame, so:

1. Does that just imply then that putting a plastic shim under the motor as well as using a Nylon screw/s to hold the motor to the frame is all that is needed with regard to remounting the motor?


2. Do I assume correctly that the brush lead wires are connected to the decoder leads? and two of the decoder leads connect in their place to the frame and the positive connection?


3. If I understand the decoder selection porocess, working off the Digtrax site, for most smaller steam loco's a 1.5amp decoder is sufficent as long as it meant for an HO application like mine?


4. Are there any drawbacks between the different brands for a smaller layout, a folded dog bone shelf of 10'x21' with mainly just one oprator but possibly two on occasion?


5. I'm thinking of using Infra red untethered hand controlers like Digtrax has for my simplified operation. I like the speed control knob over the push buttons.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.


6. Which brand of decoders do you prefer and why?

Hope these are all pertinent questions.

Sure glad there are others that are knowledge about DCC.

1. The answer to this is "yes, maybe". Yes, because the motor needs to be insulated from the frame. The maybe because it depends on how the motor is installed. I've seen some older locos with can motors held in place with a metal strap, L- brackets, etc. So long as whatever you do, the motor is isolated. At this point, I would recommend investing in a good multimeter (NOT a $5 or $10 Radio Shack / Home Depot / etc. special; Sears is good place to start looking). You'll need it later. After you're insulated the motor, use the "ohms" function to make sure.

2. The best answer here is to follow the instruction sheet that comes with the decoder. It will provide specific instructions on how and where to make connections.

3. Here's where you need the multimeter again. This time, you'll use the "current" function. You need to determine the "stall current" of the motor. This is the maximum current the motor will draw and determines which decoder is required. You need to setup a piece of track and connect a power supply (DC power pack, NOT the DCC power supply) and the meter set to read amperage (current). Set the loco on the track and gently press down until the drivers stop rotating. Immediately note the current on the meter and take the loco off the track. If you stall the motor for too long, it can be destroyed. You should find that the stall current is between 0.9A and 1.2A. Adding a safety margin – a 1.5A HO decoder will be fine. BTW, the N/HO/G designation is for typical usage. Amperage is what really counts. I have a couple of small industrial switchers that draw less than ½ amp. I use "N" scale decoders in them for their small size.

4. No.

5. Untethered is great. I, too, prefer the speed control knob, though my controllers are tethered.

6. Lenz and NCE – Lenz because the came with the controller and they work, NCE because they are direct drop-in replacements for the loco's DC board and they work. You'll note in other posts that "Digitrax is great – Digitrax is junk", "Lenz is great – Lenz is junk", "NCE is great – NCE is junk", etc. Everyone has had a bad experience with something, sometime (Ford's are junk – oh, wait, that’s a different forum). All the major manufacturers try very hard to put out the best product they can, but no quality control is perfect. Bad parts will occasionally get through, but its usually "operator error".

 

[SpaceMouse]

I'm only going to answer the question about isolating the motor. I agree that if the engine doesn't run well, it's not worth the time. It's not really about isolating the motor, it's about isolating the poles on the motor. I have a couple MDC kits and the poles on the motor touch the frame via a tab that can be bent off the frame and a wire can attach to the pole and isolation is that simple.

Now I've seen some engines that run one pole through the engine structure to the frame. Those have to be lifted off the frame with and insulated with something like electrical tape. Kaydee makes nylon screws that you can use to re-attach the motor. But these locos tend not to be worth converting without up-grading the engine anyway.

Here's an MDC climax I converted. Notice it is an open frame motor that touches the frame, but that the poles are isolated.

Note also that I hated the way it ran and had a LaFever upgrade done. (Second to last photo--need to reinstall the decoder)

LaFever

 

[RexHea]

*>Your Answer to my 5th ?:
DigiTrax economical hand throttle is Infrared and I would imagine like a tv remote there me a line of site reception for them to function?

David, I tried the infrared out and it worked fine...I didn't. My problem was that I would forget to point the throttle in the direction of the infrared receiver . However, I have operated on layouts that had more than one receiver and it was very good. Get two or more and position them in key places.

 

[Red Oak & Western]

David –

As noted in couple of the other posts, just make sure the motor is, actually isolated – top, bottom, sides, and ends. The motor should never get hot enough to melt plastic. Remember, an awful lot of loco shells are made of styrene. Nylon screws should do a good job of holding the motor in place. If they do start to loosen while running, add a small drop of green Locktite (I forget the number, but the green is for small screws and is removable, the red is "permanent").


The physical size of the decoder has no effect on the "quality" of its operation. Some smaller decoders may have fewer effects, but in most cases, especially when used in steam locos, this isn't a problem. Most steam locos didn't have ditch lights, strobes, Mars lights, etc. You mention "if a loco is smooth and free running". Now would be the best time to tune-up the locos, because as noted in other threads, DCC isn't a miracle cure: it can't make a poor running loco perform well.

I don't have any direct experience with the Digitrax infrared throttle. As I said, mine are Lenz tethered, and I've used NCE wireless (RF) throttles on a friend's layout. I assume you're correct that the Digitrax throttles operate line of site. I seem to remember reading an article about installing multiple receivers, but would have to spend some time trying to find it.

Kevin

General Manager
Red Oak & Western Railway

 

[Cjcrescent]

... But this all begs the question. Why would I want to convert an old engine to DCC.

Joe Daddy

Because of several reasons there Joe;
They run just as well if not better than the "new" loco's out there.
They are brass, old kits, etc.. with a low amp draw, extremely easy to do.
Many of the "old" brass locos, esp the PFM's came with "speaker holes" already drilled into the bottom of the tenders.

I haven't come across an old locomotive yet that "wasn't worth it".

 

[Cjcrescent]

David –

As noted in couple of the other posts, just make sure the motor is, actually isolated – top, bottom, sides, and ends.
Kevin

General Manager
Red Oak & Western Railway

Chip was completely correct! This is another misnomer. The motor does not have to be isolated, but the brushes do! What about brass steamers, brass diesels , kits, etc, that come with a metal bracket attaching the "can motor" to the frame and these frames have pickup coming thru the frame? These motors aren't completely isolated, but the brushes are. As long as the brushes are isolated, thats all you really need.

 

[Trussrod]

Say Chip,
Man you really out did yourself with all the pics but you showed quite a bit which is helpful. One shot showed you cutting what appeared to be the end off of a decoder?

I'm I correct and why would you want to do that?

Another shot showed a box you made to cover the drive gears which looks like a good idea. I have an MDC Early [GE] Box Cab Desiel with the exact same frame, motor etc. This unit is equipped with my track cleaning cylinders
on each end and gets used quite often so it will be very high on my list of first conversions. Mine always made a Deisel type of sound on it's own which I kind of enjoyed, Free Natural Sound System and no Speaker required!

I did find that the coper wipers on the trucks needed to be bent upward at about a 30* angle to ensure good contact with the screw heads for the brush
contact lead wires.

I always liked the MDC Climax's too but never managed to get one but I have two of the Box Cabs, one's a dummy I pull behind the powered one.

Back to your shots. It looks like after making the conversation and installing the Digitrax decoder you had the up grade done but didn't yet install the decoder?

To bad about MDC shutting down it's production line of cars & Loco's as it used to be, I always felt they had a pretty neat line of equipment! When I was very young I was actually at their manufacturing shop in Hawthorne, Ca. [L.A. area] as my Dad had a shop a couple of doors down from them.

Thanks again Chip,
David
Ps: That was quite a nice Pike? your Daughter caught!

 

[Trussrod]

Getting back to all of you.

Hey Joe,
As stated in another post there are many reasons for converting an older loco
to DCC, kind of sounds like you've had some bad experiences with older Loco's? They do require some fine tuning but if a person has the ability they can run perfectly slow and fine like all of mine do.

1st The main reason to convert is operation ability of using DCC;
2nd Many of the older Loco's aren't available any more like MDC Shays etc;
3rd When a person tries to model a certain Old Time Peiod only certain Loco's
fit within that era! Although I can't say I may not break out of bounds now and then but I like equipment from around the 1900's to 1920's
4th While some new older equipment is available you sure don't have the selection you did before. MDC shutting down the majority of it's line is a very good example of this. What a loss IMHO!
5th I guess I just like to enjoy all the efforts I put into building my Loco's and still have some work yet to complete on a couple

As far soldering skills I built my first two transistor radio around 1957 and have been using those skills ever since!

There are a lot of how to's with pictures scattered all over the net telling and showing how to put different decoders in different locomotives. I'd be surprised if you could not find one similar or exactly like yours. But this all begs the question. Why would I want to convert an old engine to DCC.

Now I am into sound and have converted 3 or 4 different locos and was grossly disappointed every time with the results. Unless your old locomotive runs perfectly, slow speed especially and your soldering skills are excellent, walk on by.

You can find some just tremendous buys on the web for some fine running steam and diesel locomotives for not much more than the price of the decoders. The spectrum 2-8-0 with the tsunami is one example of an amazing little engine. They are also available with DCC and no sound.

I've been doing electronic work since 1963 and there are alot of ways to simply destroy a decoder.
Just my 2 cents never worth another dime!
Joe Daddy

Hi Rex,
Thanks for your note about the infrared, I figured it must be like a TV remote
and you confirmed that. Thanks for the receiver input also!

David, I tried the infrared out and it worked fine...I didn't. My problem was that I would forget to point the throttle in the direction of the infrared receiver . However, I have operated on layouts that had more than one receiver and it was very good. Get two or more and position them in key places.

Hi Kevin,
You again have provided aufull lot of useful information as has most everybody, it all meant to help me and I'm sure gaining a lot of knowledge.

As far as my question about the motor getting hot enough to melt plastic I was thinking of a plastic shim under the motor not the shell that would require a tremendous amount of heat to melt it.

Thanks for the tip about Green Lock-tite

It also good to know that the size of the decoder has no bearing on the operational ability of a steam loco as some of mine have pretty limited space
especially the MDC Shay's.

David –
As noted in couple of the other posts, just make sure the motor is, actually isolated – top, bottom, sides, and ends. The motor should never get hot enough to melt plastic. Remember, an awful lot of loco shells are made of styrene. Nylon screws should do a good job of holding the motor in place. If they do start to loosen while running, add a small drop of green Locktite (I forget the number, but the green is for small screws and is removable, the red is "permanent").

The physical size of the decoder has no effect on the "quality" of its operation. Some smaller decoders may have fewer effects, but in most cases, especially when used in steam locos, this isn't a problem. Most steam locos didn't have ditch lights, strobes, Mars lights, etc. You mention "if a loco is smooth and free running". Now would be the best time to tune-up the locos, because as noted in other threads, DCC isn't a miracle cure: it can't make a poor running loco perform well.

I don't have any direct experience with the Digitrax infrared throttle. As I said, mine are Lenz tethered, and I've used NCE wireless (RF) throttles on a friend's layout. I assume you're correct that the Digitrax throttles operate line of site. I seem to remember reading an article about installing multiple receivers, but would have to spend some time trying to find it.

Kevin
General Manager
Red Oak & Western Railway

Because of several reasons there Joe;
They run just as well if not better than the "new" loco's out there.
They are brass, old kits, etc.. with a low amp draw, extremely easy to do.
Many of the "old" brass locos, esp the PFM's came with "speaker holes" already drilled into the bottom of the tenders.

I haven't come across an old locomotive yet that "wasn't worth it".

 

[SpaceMouse]

The decoder is a circuit board sealed in plastic. The decoder didn't quite fit so I cut off part of the plastic seal. When I redo the unit (I won't need it untill my layout is functioning), I'll do it with an N-scale decoder. Ron LaFever provided a space for it.

My daughter caught that Muskie at a small lake between Tomahawk and Rhinlander in Northern Wisconsin.